SPAM: Mages near NYC - check this out!

[draconic feathers]

check it out here at:<br><br>http://www.ultraculture.org/

ADMIN NOTE: Please mark spam as such.

[LordArt]

So other than hype/marketing speak, what is this exactly supposed to be?

[draconic feathers]

it's an event that's basically composed of a discussion between Alex Grey and Jason Louv on these topics:

Genesis Breyer P-Orridge on the holographic Garden of Eden

Brion Gysin’s travelogue of his journey to Alamut, the citadel of the Assassins

Lalitanath and Shivanath on the Magick Path of Tantra

Jason Louv’s essential guide to Western magick

Peter-R. Koenig on the occult career of David Bowie
(Note: This article has been removed
from the PDF at the request of Mr. Koenig.)

Beat legend Ira Cohen on John Dee and the Kumbh Mela,
the biggest religious festival in the world

Dave Lowe and Hans Plomp travel across India’s mountains and rivers without end

The psychedelic rantings of Ganesh Baba, the world’s most tripped-out guru

Johnny Templar broadcasts live from the tomb of Christian Rosenkreutz

Mordant Carnival on working with Loki, the Man With the Tattered Smile

Elijah casts a Spell to Open the Sky

Joel Biroco on the “War on Terror”

Prince Charming interviews Tibetan Tantric Adept Monica Dechen Gyalmo


as well as just the occult and magic in general and how it interplays into our culture, the world, and the direction of the world.

I posted it here as an invitation to the event with the intent of getting more mages (and people of such orientation) to get together...the way I see it we're literally our own population here, a growing minority. I feel that since we're all in the same boat (so to speak) it'd be a good idea for us to unite and get together and learn from each other...we're literally like our own culture here and the more it grows the more we grow. There are innumerable things we could accomplish if we were all to be united instead of just off to ourselves...and gatherings such as this are ideal for that.

My end goal is to have the mage-culture become apart of mainstream life...if this were so we'd be more able to survive within society without having to compromise ourselves (in other words we could become recognized members of humanity and society and be able to make a living doing what we love instead of lurking around in the dark and having our growth stunted or discouraged). I feel that such reality would help fix the world's problems...people would become more aware of reality, themselves, the world they live in and the universe. They'd evolve and would be compelled to progress in a healthy way that'll be beneficial to all. But in order for that to happen we have to unite our traditions and become aware of what everyone has to offer...be it contemporary magic, chaos magic, tantric yoga and meditations, theurgy, thaumaturgy, witchcraft, wicca, shamanism of various indigenous cultures, psychism, theosophy, spiritualism, voodoo, santeria, psionics, folk magic, rosicrucianism, alchemy, hermeticsm, esoteric buddhism, chi gong, internal martial arts...as opposed to just peeking over shoulders and thinking what the person over there is doing is weird or silly or trivial or just too different.

On a simpler level it'd also be a great way to just meet more mages and have more like-minded friends. Venturing solo in this line of work can be tough...being surrounded by people who just don't understand or are blatantly oblivious. To extend a network of kindred beings can really make a world of a difference not only for oneself but for many others in turn.


So yeah...that's what it is. A discussion between a mystic artist and an occultist and a chance to learn something new and make new friends, while helping set a new current for the future.


And just in case you dunno who either of these guys are:

www.alexgrey.com
www.cosm.org


and this is Jason Louv:

http://www.myspace.com/jasonlouv
http://www.ultraculture.org/index2.htm

he compiled and edited the book "Generation Hex", if that helps.

[Modron]

If you are in NY I would highly recommend this to anyone. They have gathered together an array of seriously interesting people. Also if you havent read 'Generation Hex' its pretty damn good

Jason Louv and his people are actually doing something different and exciting in the Occult scene.

93
Lucia

[LordArt]

Well, I looked at the site, and I will say I'm not a supporter of drugs and magic. I think it's a horrible crutch and too easily abused. (Kind of like a lot of people with tantric magic, most of them just end up having sex and forget about the magic until after it's all over at best. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but then call it what it is.) I'm sure there are those that don't abuse it, but for every one that doesn't you know many more do. Such is the way of things.

However, I will likely be going since an Ex-GF likes some of the other stuff that is being discussed(and therefore she'll likely be there), but we won't likely be able to be there by 8.

I feel that since we're all in the same boat (so to speak) it'd be a good idea for us to unite and get together and learn from each other...we're literally like our own culture here and the more it grows the more we grow. There are innumerable things we could accomplish if we were all to be united instead of just off to ourselves...and gatherings such as this are ideal for that.

I think you are being naive here. Great on paper, doesn't really work in real life. Too many diametrically opposed end goals and means to get there. Mages are as diverse as pagans. There is just as much bigotry (if not more so) between mages as pagans between themselves and other religeons. Generally mages are worse because by definition almost, their egos are larger just to do the magic they do. (Lets face it, you have to have a decent sized ego to tell the universe to bend to your will because you said so!) Their magic only works because of the "truths" they believe, and they certainly don't want those truths challenged, or worse, disproved, because then their magic falls apart.

I will stop and refrain my non-pollitically correct opinions to keep the peace.

[StormSeeker]

Looks fun. ^_^

I agree with Arthur on the "it looks good on paper". It's a nice sounding ideal, but...I'm active in the energy work community here where I live, and a member of two qigong groups, and know at least five people who teach/study qigong - all of them are different subsets of qigong, different systems - and at least three of those people do not even believe in what the other subsystem of qigong does, let alone acknowledge it.

And don't get me started on the psionics community.

(in other words we could become recognized members of humanity and society and be able to make a living doing what we love instead of lurking around in the dark and having our growth stunted or discouraged).

Honestly? Considering the FDA wanted/wants to pass a bill which allows them to regulate already "recognized" members of society who do energy work, like Reiki and acupuncturists (which would, in effect, allow them to shut them down and prevent that treatment option being available to people in the US)? I don't see that much happening, or at least not for a very long time and not without a long and arduous road.

However, I do see it far more likely to happen to individuals and the concept of magic as a whole, as it has with systems like Reiki, than if we somehow "unite". (I suppose it's the whole unity thing that I don't see happening; not without a common goal to keep people united and I don't think "world peace or unity" is going to cut it as a goal that most or all will put their differences aside for long enough to invest in.)

[draconic feathers]

I'm well aware of all the differences both of you mentioned. That's why I stated that idea of unity...so that everyone could all go beyond such things.

However, I do see it far more likely to happen to individuals and the concept of magic as a whole, as it has with systems like Reiki, than if we somehow "unite". (I suppose it's the whole unity thing that I don't see happening; not without a common goal to keep people united and I don't think "world peace or unity" is going to cut it as a goal that most or all will put their differences aside for long enough to invest in.)

Precisely. I find that the majority of (but not limited to) traditional magicians have a sincere care for the world and the direction it's going in...it's something fundamental to their understanding and the development of their practice. Traditions and practices may have their differences, but they're all founded over the same fundamental principles...just like world religions. They may hate and judge each other now, but they're all based off of a perennial philosophy (Frazer's Golden Bough explores and supports this).

My point was that other mages would have a better chance of realizing this through interaction with mages from different practices, traditions and sects. They all go to this event sharing similar interests, mingle after having this common point of interest bring them together, and relate to eachother through various experiences that they can't have with the consensus population. Through this a feeling of kindred identity is aroused and serves as a higher catalyst for unity. Differences may be there, yes, but by the time this type of unity is developed such things can be overlooked and it becomes easy to "agree to disagree" (I know this from first hand experience with another mage friend of mine...we clash and bump heads very often, in our theories, truths and perspectives, but in the end we're still friends and still find mutual connection points, teaching each other new things we would have missed otherwise)

Well, I looked at the site, and I will say I'm not a supporter of drugs and magic. I think it's a horrible crutch and too easily abused. (Kind of like a lot of people with tantric magic, most of them just end up having sex and forget about the magic until after it's all over at best. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but then call it what it is.) I'm sure there are those that don't abuse it, but for every one that doesn't you know many more do. Such is the way of things.

First thing...Tantra is not always about sex -_- That's a common, western, stereotypical misinterpretation.

Tantra (Sanskrit: तन्त्र "weave" denoting continuity[1]), tantricism or tantrism is any of several esoteric traditions rooted in the religions of India. It exists in Hindu, Bönpo, Buddhist, and Jain forms. Tantra in its various forms has existed in India, China, Japan, Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Korea, Cambodia, Burma, Indonesia and Mongolia.[2] David Gordon White, while cautioning against attempting a rigorous definition of what is a protean practice, offers the following working definition:

"Tantra is that Asian body of beliefs and practices which, working from the principle that the universe we experience is nothing other than the concrete manifestation of the divine energy of the Godhead that creates and maintains that universe, seeks to ritually appropriate and channel that energy, within the human microcosm, in creative and emancipatory ways".[3]

rom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra


The process of Tantra:

http://www.yogainnewyork.com/pro_tantra.htm

The whole sexual union tantric technique thing was something that was popularized by these rich members of a European gentlemens' club who literally had nothing better to do with their lives. They founded clubs based around the spreading of such knowledge and word eventually leaked out...and seeing as this idea was sourced from "the profane" so to speak (they never had any actual interest in spirituality or the true esoteric potential of tantra) the interpreation the masses have of it now is just that: profane.

If this still doesn't help one have a better understanding of what tantra really is consider this: You know the practices of esoteric buddhism of the Vajrayani sect? That's considered Tantra as well.

It's just an esoteric asiatic practice for spiritual development and the advancement of one's psychic faculties...not a sexual orgy bliss fun time train.


And as for drugs...Shamans have been using drugs for ages, and they've served them well. However, Shamans have also used these substances and plants in a very responsible and respectful way. They used what they had access to then, and people can use what they have access to now...but with the power comes the required responsibility. Also...the idea's not to use the drugs just FOR magic (though many people do get caught up in that). It's to facilitate a shamanic-type journey so that one can have paramount experiences where one can travel, learn and develop in ways that will have permanent and long term effects on their being...so it's like "studying abroad" on a psychic level.

But yeah...many people do abuse it and get too caught up in the fantastic-amazing aspect of it (moon-struck)

[LordArt]

I find that the majority of (but not limited to) traditional magicians have a sincere care for the world and the direction it's going in...it's something fundamental to their understanding and the development of their practice.

I think you are making the mistake of generalizing here. Like attracts like and hangs out with like. I've seen a very broad spectrum over the years and "majority" isn't a word I would use at all to describe the amount of mages that have a "sincere care for the world". Please don't assume the actions of the rest of the world by the people you hang out with or the authors you decided to read. The world is much larger and diverse.

Traditions and practices may have their differences, but they're all founded over the same fundamental principles

I'm interested in hearing what fundemental principles you think they are. Mages are more vastly different than people in religeons. At least people in religeons all agree on a higher power, so a pagan would be more simular to a christian than either to an athiest. But there are athiest mages for example, so the diverseness is more extreme.

...but they're all based off of a perennial philosophy (Frazer's Golden Bough explores and supports this).

What perennial philosophy are you refering to? (I haven't read Golden Bough) From what I know of it, Golden Bough is talking about religeons and comparing them, not magicians. Please keep in mind that only in recent times have mages (or even witches for that matter) are theurgists as a majority (and therefore religous).

Most of the many hundreds of years before now(ie. the last 30 or so), they were thaumaturgists and religeon didn't enter the picture.

First thing...Tantra is not always about sex

I never said it was. I was commenting on the typical abuse of it and how commonly it is abused versus proper use. While I don't need the lecture about what it is, I'm sure some other readers found it useful.

They all go to this event sharing similar interests, mingle after having this common point of interest bring them together

I went (with the Head of OmniNorth Rich). There was no mingling of the crowd. After the lecture, most people looked at the artwork then left (or bought something at the store and left). My impression by the makeup of the crowd were that they were 95% novices who didn't even know what magic was and needed it defined for them. The vast majority looked under 20, so these were not grand masters getter together for tea.

There was evidently going to be some sort of initiation later on that I decided to skip (obviously).

If you really want a meeting of the minds, you have to have an event that brings those minds together WITH that intent. It can't just be someone's lecture promoting their book, there has to be enough time for the crowd to get to know each other as well as the speaker and a REASON for them to. I've seen Crucible do more of this because of the after/pre parties. That is why there is the traditional dinner with everyone on the Friday night before Crucible that everyone is invited to, including the speakers. (And normally a brunch after the event on Sunday morning). There is FAR more mingling done then then what I saw last night.

I did talk to the author last night, breifly. I pointed out an alternate viewpoint that he might consider and he agreed. I mentioned Omni to him, and unsurprisingly he'd never heard of it and kept trying to pigeon holing it to Chaos Magic(or tried to say that is what Chaos magic is trying to go to). After insisting that Omnimancy isn't chaos magic, he agreed to check out the website.

It's always been a hard thing for people to understand Omni, especially those only exposed to more traditional systems. I plan to post soon the Wicca to Omni translator that one of my students wrote in her book, and ask a past Crucible speaker who knows some Omni to do a Chaos magician to Omni translator. So it should be interesting.

Shamans have also used these substances and plants in a very responsible and respectful way.

Which is my point. Almost anything is safe and useful IF USED RESPONSIBLY. The fact is most don't, and many use the excuse that they are responsible and aren't. And since no one is watching, all one can do is clean up the mess at best. I'd rather not.

but with the power comes the required responsibility

With power comes responsibility, that is true. The crux is, do people actually TAKE that responsibility seriously is the point and problem. Most seem not to.

[draconic feathers]

I find that the majority of (but not limited to) traditional magicians have a sincere care for the world and the direction it's going in...it's something fundamental to their understanding and the development of their practice.

I think you are making the mistake of generalizing here. Like attracts like and hangs out with like. I've seen a very broad spectrum over the years and "majority" isn't a word I would use at all to describe the amount of mages that have a "sincere care for the world". Please don't assume the actions of the rest of the world by the people you hang out with or the authors you decided to read. The world is much larger and diverse.

I just said that is what I found from the majority of traditional magicians...not all magicians in general. And by traditional, I mean practices and systems that have been around for quite some time now and denote group work (ritualistic schools and orders of various kinds).

Traditions and practices may have their differences, but they're all founded over the same fundamental principles

I'm interested in hearing what fundemental principles you think they are. Mages are more vastly different than people in religeons. At least people in religeons all agree on a higher power, so a pagan would be more simular to a christian than either to an athiest. But there are athiest mages for example, so the diverseness is more extreme.

Another emphasis on Traditions here...it's from these fundamental traditions that the majority of what magicians and psychics/whatevers know, are interested in and practice, come from. Sure not everyone is a part of a school or order nowadays (nor where they always), but these unique and creative deviations and inventive techniques, approaches and practices were all inspired from these original principles. People just take what's on the periphery of these principles and use them as they please.

...but they're all based off of a perennial philosophy (Frazer's Golden Bough explores and supports this).

What perennial philosophy are you refering to? (I haven't read Golden Bough) From what I know of it, Golden Bough is talking about religeons and comparing them, not magicians. Please keep in mind that only in recent times have mages (or even witches for that matter) are theurgists as a majority (and therefore religous).

Most of the many hundreds of years before now(ie. the last 30 or so), they were thaumaturgists and religeon didn't enter the picture.

I was talking about religions here, not magicians...I was saying that all religions are based off of a perennial philosophy, using the example as a metaphorical comparison. The Golden Bough was written by an atheist in an attempt to present all religions as something derived from cultural quackery (superstition) but actually turned into something that supported the validity behind the concept of spirituality and religion (the two are indeed different things). Frazer's thesis and research ended up unveiling to him the perennial philosophy on which all religions were founded...something that could be described as nothing short of a phenomenon since people and cultures weren't able to travel across the world, exchange information and expose each other to cultures and ideas at the times of the founding of these religions and traditions.

Long story short, the perennial philosophy is Love...if you want a more concise answer, I suggest reading the Golden Bough, the Heart and Diamond Sutra, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Torah, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Old Testament, the Gnostic Gospels, the Koran etc...or you can just research religions and take note of their fundamental principles and origins (though I'd recommend you still read the Bhagavad-Gita at least...it's the shortest on the list yet definitely one of the most concise and effective. I also recommend the Tibetan Book of the Dead as well). An analysis of Henry David Thorough's, Ralph Waldo Emerson's and William Blake's work will also help out in this endeavor.

While this pertains to religion it still appertains to magic as well. This perennial philosophy is the foundation for all practices of theurgy, including Tantra of all sorts...I'd even go as far as to say it had an important influence on thaumaturgy because of how it founded judeo-christian magic (from which a good amount of thaumaturgic practices sprouted). This perennial philosophy is also what created the magic practiced by the sufi's and other middle eastern magi and mystics...from which a great deal of thaumaturgy sprouted as well. So it can be relatively important to consider since magic itself is something that's been created and inspired by many different traditions and practices. Theurgy inspired and influenced thaumaturgy and - (probably, this is literally a guess - ) -vice versa.

Also, there were a good number of theurgists in the past...just not primarily in the west. There were some in the west though...they just kept everything hush-hush. These were the Free Masons and Rosicrucians. It's their work from which modern western theurgy has been founded (golden dawn, thelema, etc etc...)

They all go to this event sharing similar interests, mingle after having this common point of interest bring them together

I went (with the Head of OmniNorth Rich). There was no mingling of the crowd. After the lecture, most people looked at the artwork then left (or bought something at the store and left). My impression by the makeup of the crowd were that they were 95% novices who didn't even know what magic was and needed it defined for them. The vast majority looked under 20, so these were not grand masters getter together for tea.

There was evidently going to be some sort of initiation later on that I decided to skip (obviously).

If you really want a meeting of the minds, you have to have an event that brings those minds together WITH that intent. It can't just be someone's lecture promoting their book, there has to be enough time for the crowd to get to know each other as well as the speaker and a REASON for them to. I've seen Crucible do more of this because of the after/pre parties. That is why there is the traditional dinner with everyone on the Friday night before Crucible that everyone is invited to, including the speakers. (And normally a brunch after the event on Sunday morning). There is FAR more mingling done then then what I saw last night.

I did talk to the author last night, breifly. I pointed out an alternate viewpoint that he might consider and he agreed. I mentioned Omni to him, and unsurprisingly he'd never heard of it and kept trying to pigeon holing it to Chaos Magic(or tried to say that is what Chaos magic is trying to go to). After insisting that Omnimancy isn't chaos magic, he agreed to check out the website.

It's always been a hard thing for people to understand Omni, especially those only exposed to more traditional systems. I plan to post soon the Wicca to Omni translator that one of my students wrote in her book, and ask a past Crucible speaker who knows some Omni to do a Chaos magician to Omni translator. So it should be interesting.

Yeah, my mistake there...I was assuming more than that. I suppose that was Jason's intent though (that type of crowd). Unfortunately I wasn't able to attend...I had other "duties" that night, but managed to get there really really late (almost midnight) and spoke with Jason a bit.

It's cool that you got Jason to look at Omnimancy...had I more time to speak with him I would've pointed him towards that as well. Also, I have to agree with him on how Omnimancy is what chaos magic is trying to do (emphasis on trying). It's definitely more advanced than chaos magic.

Shamans have also used these substances and plants in a very responsible and respectful way.

Which is my point. Almost anything is safe and useful IF USED RESPONSIBLY. The fact is most don't, and many use the excuse that they are responsible and aren't. And since no one is watching, all one can do is clean up the mess at best. I'd rather not.

but with the power comes the required responsibility

With power comes responsibility, that is true. The crux is, do people actually TAKE that responsibility seriously is the point and problem. Most seem not to.

*nod* very true. And I suppose that's why masters and mentors of various sorts are very prudent in choosing who they'll instruct[/i]

[LordArt]

I just said that is what I found from the majority of traditional magicians...not all magicians in general. And by traditional, I mean practices and systems that have been around for quite some time now and denote group work (ritualistic schools and orders of various kinds).

I was talking about traditional mages too. Most mages are. I suppose it's a matter of where you do the cut off for "tradition". I think you seem to be ignoring groups like COS (Church of Satan) and TOS (Temple of Set). They have a LOT of members and have been around for a LONG time. There are other groups of course (like Z cluster), that the list can go on about, but I really don't feel like tracking them all down to make a point.

I think I should point out that you are also equaling "traditional" to equal "Theurge" and they really aren't. That's like people saying pagan=wicca and vice versa. I would also like to point out that there are a LOT of physical groups that do NOT have an online presence at all. They are made up of traditions that have prevented their information from being spammed across the internet, and they really have no interest in making themselves known to the current generation of practitioners at large, partially for the reason to prevent the spamming. They select people as they see fit, and those selected don't talk about it much. They keep off of everyone's radar (and that's how they survived in the first place).

Please keep in mind there was a landscape before the current situation where wicca was so dominant in the pagan community, where theurgists were the rarity. (At that time it was much easier to see those groups versus now with the swarming behemoth that is wicca. Even wicca isn’t what it was. Compare Gardenerian or Alexandrian to the current majority of wicca and it’s significantly different). The reality is that theurgist material was easier to get a hold of (partially because they WANTED it to be) and understand than thaumaturgist material that was being kept secret, so now you have an entire generation that doesn't know any better and mostly doesn't even know thaumaturgy exists.

And while you might have been taking about "traditional mages" (by your view point of traditional), the topic at the time was magicians in general.

I was talking about religions here, not magicians...I was saying that all religions are based off of a perennial philosophy, using the example as a metaphorical comparison….

Please don't use the Chewbacca defense. For the point you were trying to make, the two are unrelated. Saying that religion has a similar base point doesn't mean magic does, especially since, from a magical perspective, that magic is a larger superset than religion.

While this pertains to religion it still appertains to magic as well. This perennial philosophy is the foundation for all practices of theurgy

I disagree. Please don't use the word "all", because you are showing your ignorance. You are also alluding to that all magic is theurgy and it isn't. Perhaps all of what YOU have been exposed to, I would agree with.

And how do you define Love? The ideal Love of love every blade of grass and tree and person? Well that doesn't work in all religions. What about COS and TOS, Kalima, and many others? Golden Bough was written during the time that such views weren't known or considered valid. While I don't follow any of those or even agree with them, I see them just as valid as any of the ones you mentioned.

And should we look at what the followers of this love SHOULD be doing or how it seems to be implemented. Such as bombings of the trade center and other terrorist attacks. Or perhaps something more close and personal like the holy war between my Ex's family (Catholic) and my family (Protestant) just over our marriage and where to have the ceremony (to the point that certain people didn't show because of it). Or even a close friend of mine turning Christian fundamentalist and then saying he'd take a rifle against me (He's feeling better now, but it took MANY years for him). I have many other stories.

And LOVE of what? Love thy neighbor* (*=As long as they are EXACTLY like us, believe in the same god(s) the same way and interact the same way. Otherwise exterminate with extreme prejudice), Love of Knowledge, Love of Self, Love of destruction, Love of giving pain to others? If it's only one and not everything, can you REALLY use the general word "love" for saying that's the "perennial philosophy"? That's side stepping the issue hoping no one looks closer to promote your agenda.

The "ducks float, wood floats, ducks are made of wood" logic really doesn't hold up in the light of day.

I'd even go as far as to say it had an important influence on thaumaturgy because of how it founded judeo-christian magic (from which a good amount of thaumaturgic practices sprouted).

And this is why you fail. The world is not Judeo-Christian, despite it's propaganda to say otherwise. Population wise, Buddhists and Hindi out number them easily if not each alone. Christianity is on a severe downturn in first world countries. (Although the remainder are getting more and more disturbingly militant)

I'm also sure that practitioners of Galdr, Sheithe working(both Norse based), Druids, Celtic, Witch doctors of various tribes around the world, Native American, Hindi, Hellenic, Egyptian, Babylonian/Sumerian, various countless Eastern magical systems(including Qigong, chi working), and many others that I'm not aware of will be happy to know that they are based on Judeo-Christian magic. Please keep in mind that Christianity is young in comparison to many others and so certainly could not have been a foundational influence.

I'm trying to indicate to you that the world is larger than the small subset that you seem to hold on to so tightly. Please don't make sweeping statements about things you obviously know nothing about. I'm sure in your area your knowledgeable, but your exposure to things outside your comfort zone seems DRASTICALLY sparse. I think a lot of people don't confront you about it, either because you don't hang around those that would(ie. because they agree with you or don't feel it's their place to challenge your beliefs) or it simply isn't worth their time.

Normally I'm one to let people have their beliefs, but you came here to push your agenda, so I couldn't ignore it.


If you really want to bridge the gaps between groups, you have to actually understand what keeps them apart, not stick your head in the sand and hope it all works out because it suits your world view that they'll love each other if they are in the same room together. You will NEVER get everyone to love each other, move past that. Love is a powerful thing and creates just as much destruction as it does creation(I wonder sometimes if not more so). Ignore that to your own peril. I think the best example of a mage convention that bridged gaps I've seen so far was the Nutmeg convention that ran from 1994-2001. That was a VERY eclectic bunch. It was interesting to watch Satanic magicians side by side having convos with Christian magicians (as well as various other types). And the reason that could happen is respect. Respect breeds tolerance, and tolerance should be your goal, not love. It’s far more achievable, and works. Respect can generally only be achieved through education and understanding, not ignorance. But education can’t just be your own personal agenda, because that gets sniffed out VERY quickly and then discarded, even if it came from the right idea. The idea gets lost to the drama. KNOW what you are talking about and demonstrate it, don’t make assumptions because it fits your agenda. Otherwise you lose your credibility and then are ignored.

[draconic feathers]

I just said that is what I found from the majority of traditional magicians...not all magicians in general. And by traditional, I mean practices and systems that have been around for quite some time now and denote group work (ritualistic schools and orders of various kinds).

I was talking about traditional mages too. Most mages are. I suppose it's a matter of where you do the cut off for "tradition". I think you seem to be ignoring groups like COS (Church of Satan) and TOS (Temple of Set). They have a LOT of members and have been around for a LONG time. There are other groups of course (like Z cluster), that the list can go on about, but I really don't feel like tracking them all down to make a point.

Well, neither of those groups were around for a very long time...30 to 50 years isn't very long, especially not compared to how long Free Masonry and Rosicrucianism (and Hermeticism itself) have been around (ancient Egypt to pre-classical Greece and even before then). I highly doubt the amount of followers/members they have and have had compare to the amount of people practicing Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism and just plain Hermeticism (or various forms of Buddhist and Toaist alchemical and cultivation practices and Tantra) over the centuries.

COS was inspired of the Order of the Trapezoid...which, along with the Temple of Set, were inspired by personal interpretations of Thelema ("Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" and "Love is the Law, Love Under Will"...two principles that were contorted and became the inspiration for Satanism, undoubtedly compared with Hassan Isabbah's motto "Nothing is true, all is permitted"), H.P. Lovecraft's works and Cthulu Mythos (this is more so for the "Order of the Trapezoid" which is a direct reference to H.P. Lovecraft's works) and Austin Osman Spare's Kia and Zos system. These two influences haven't been around for very long either...approximately a century. That's still not long in regards to magical history. Also, I'm sure all other groups that have similar orientation to TOS and COS also came about after these groups due to a trickling down of influence and personal preference.

I think I should point out that you are also equaling "traditional" to equal "Theurge" and they really aren't. That's like people saying pagan=wicca and vice versa. I would also like to point out that there are a LOT of physical groups that do NOT have an online presence at all. They are made up of traditions that have prevented their information from being spammed across the internet, and they really have no interest in making themselves known to the current generation of practitioners at large, partially for the reason to prevent the spamming. They select people as they see fit, and those selected don't talk about it much. They keep off of everyone's radar (and that's how they survived in the first place).

The same can be said for the Elusinian and Egyptian Mysteries, and (primarily) Hermeticism and Rosicrucianism. However times have changed and, as you already said, they willingly have been revealing themselves.

I was talking about religions here, not magicians...I was saying that all religions are based off of a perennial philosophy, using the example as a metaphorical comparison…

Please don't use the Chewbacca defense. For the point you were trying to make, the two are unrelated. Saying that religion has a similar base point doesn't mean magic does, especially since, from a magical perspective, that magic is a larger superset than religion.

Dunno what a Chewbacca defense is, but ok. And I wouldn't be so sure about magic being a larger superset than religion...all one has to do is look at it's hulking form as it influences and has influenced the entire world for ages. Looks kinda big to me, especially so from a magical perspective.

While this pertains to religion it still appertains to magic as well. This perennial philosophy is the foundation for all practices of theurgy

I disagree. Please don't use the word "all", because you are showing your ignorance. You are also alluding to that all magic is theurgy and it isn't. Perhaps all of what YOU have been exposed to, I would agree with.

And how do you define Love? The ideal Love of love every blade of grass and tree and person? Well that doesn't work in all religions. What about COS and TOS, Kalima, and many others? Golden Bough was written during the time that such views weren't known or considered valid. While I don't follow any of those or even agree with them, I see them just as valid as any of the ones you mentioned.

And should we look at what the followers of this love SHOULD be doing or how it seems to be implemented. Such as bombings of the trade center and other terrorist attacks. Or perhaps something more close and personal like the holy war between my Ex's family (Catholic) and my family (Protestant) just over our marriage and where to have the ceremony (to the point that certain people didn't show because of it). Or even a close friend of mine turning Christian fundamentalist and then saying he'd take a rifle against me (He's feeling better now, but it took MANY years for him). I have many other stories.

And LOVE of what? Love thy neighbor* (*=As long as they are EXACTLY like us, believe in the same god(s) the same way and interact the same way. Otherwise exterminate with extreme prejudice), Love of Knowledge, Love of Self, Love of destruction, Love of giving pain to others? If it's only one and not everything, can you REALLY use the general word "love" for saying that's the "perennial philosophy"? That's side stepping the issue hoping no one looks closer to promote your agenda.

The "ducks float, wood floats, ducks are made of wood" logic really doesn't hold up in the light of day.

Yes, ALL religions have been founded off of this perennial philosophy...the real ones anyway. Modern things such as TOS and the like are basically cults. Why? Because they weren't founded on this perennial philosophy. They're based off of personal gain and other such pursuits...they have absolutely nothing to do with raising one's perceptions and awareness up, a progressive philosophy for life and the world or anything of the sort. It's just a big game for building up power over others (for both the founders and authorities and the members).

Now you may say this premise sounds quite familiar...and it is. I'll be one of the first people to say the majority of modern day religions suck. Your situation and tribulations are most unfortunate and definitely not unique. Religion has caused much damage and suffering in this word. I don't think there are any (or many) religions left that have anything to do with their founding principles and original philosophies. Throughout history they've been corrupted and distorted so that they could become brainwashing schools of oppression, authority and control by making people believe they need some sort of intermediary to commune with the divine (a pseudo shaman)...this is where theurgy comes in.

It's meant to surpass such limitations and help one achieve this for oneself...and the oppressive nature of these religions were quite aware of this, hence theurgy's retreat and withdrawal from the world. They occasional arose every now and then (the Renaissance is one example, as is the Classical and Romantic periods of music and Art) when the time was right and the oppression wasn't as strong. If you want an example of how religions dealt with theurgists just take a gander at the Catholic Church's slaughter of the Knights Templar, or the Inquisition (which took many others along with their primary targets). Here I'd like to say that Religion and Theurgy aren't the same thing (in regards to religion in it's modern context anyway). Theurgy is a spiritual practice, not a religious one...and while there may be many religious theurgists who adore their religious practices and traditions, this does not mean that theurgy is a religious practice in itself. If it were these religious members wouldn't be able to practice theurgy due to religious conflict and would require a conversion, etc etc...So while all theurgists may not be religious in nature, they are spiritual (I'm alluding back to my point in my last post where I said religion and spirituality are not the same thing).

Back to religions: Modern religions also emphasize judgment and separation more than Love and Unity. That alone can cause someone to notice something is wrong (which doesn't really have to be said).

Knowing you'd want a more concise meaning of "Love" I pointed you towards subjects for personal research so you could see where I'm coming from instead of having to hear my poetic rants on the subject (which is how I would directly reply to your questions about Love). Speaking of poetry, Rumi's poems shed such an understanding in a pretty explicit way. So if you want a more concise understanding, I suggest you take a look at the subjects for research I mentioned in my previous post.

But, basically, I'm talking about True Love here...which is what you described as the "ideal" love. The love between two lovers when they stare into each other's eyes, the love [healthy and sane] parents hold for their children and newly born, the love between two life long friends, the love one feels gazing out towards a beautiful landscape in appreciation of all Creation...yeah. Sounds pretty ideal. But believe it or not, it's a reality, and a possibility many people are just too afraid to accept and aspire towards. To do so would be "too hard" and require resolving one's own multitudes of personal issues (aka Karma)...which means stepping out of one's comfort zones and taking risks. So, in order to avoid shame, heavy emotions, nostalgia, having to deal with temporary uncertainty, longing, wanderlust, "what ifs" and feelings of incompetence and other such distractions from a life of limitation, people tell themselves that such things are not possible. Reality and life is harsh and will always be cold, messed up and filled with separations, oppression and hatred...so they build their own walls to keep themselves within their comfort zones and to fog up any vision of possible alternatives. Working through this filter and realizing this reality may seem, "too hard", impossible, idealistic and "unrealistic" but it most definitely is not. Any magician who is familiar with the workings of will and intent should know that nothing is "too hard" or completely impossible; reality is much more mutable than it seems. Compassion and Fraternity are Reality.

I'd even go as far as to say it had an important influence on thaumaturgy because of how it founded judeo-christian magic (from which a good amount of thaumaturgic practices sprouted).

And this is why you fail. The world is not Judeo-Christian, despite it's propaganda to say otherwise. Population wise, Buddhists and Hindi out number them easily if not each alone. Christianity is on a severe downturn in first world countries. (Although the remainder are getting more and more disturbingly militant)

I'm also sure that practitioners of Galdr, Sheithe working(both Norse based), Druids, Celtic, Witch doctors of various tribes around the world, Native American, Hindi, Hellenic, Egyptian, Babylonian/Sumerian, various countless Eastern magical systems(including Qigong, chi working), and many others that I'm not aware of will be happy to know that they are based on Judeo-Christian magic. Please keep in mind that Christianity is young in comparison to many others and so certainly could not have been a foundational influence.

This is why I fail, huh? Such harsh words.

Anyway, I'd like to point out how you overlooked this:

This perennial philosophy is also what created the magic practiced by the sufi's and other middle eastern magi and mystics...from which a great deal of thaumaturgy sprouted as well.

You left out Zoroastrianism, Islam, Sufism and Zurvanism.

These, along with the magic of the Celts, Druids, Egyptians, (Hermeticsm...Egypt's basically the home of western Theurgy), Taoists (chi gong), esoteric Buddhists, Shinto practitioners, Tantra practitioners and Shamans of all cultures (especially so with Native American and South American/Amazonian Shamans and not excluding Scandinavian Shamans) were based off of the perennial philosophy. They didn't respect nature, Creation, the laws of the universe and the like just out of "fear" you know. They had a sincere appreciation and understanding from which they built their practices, outlooks and traditions...and this understanding and appreciation was a reflection of the perennial philosophy. I'm not going to say that witchdoctors and thamaturgic chi gong and tantra practitioners (people who like to use energy for martial purposes only or for hexes or minor miracles, etc) don't exist or were directly practicing the principles of the perennial philosophy, but I will say that their techniques originated from the principles and systems built from the understanding of said philosophy. Why? Because the practitioners of the aforementioned traditions, as well as theurgists, are able to do such things as well...thaumaturgy's actually a part of their training (for the "inner" orders anyway, since the instructors wanted to test the sincerity and discipline of the aspirants before granting them knowledge and access to such skills). These people just took what they found was most "practical" and focused on that alone.

I'm trying to indicate to you that the world is larger than the small subset that you seem to hold on to so tightly. Please don't make sweeping statements about things you obviously know nothing about. I'm sure in your area your knowledgeable, but your exposure to things outside your comfort zone seems DRASTICALLY sparse. I think a lot of people don't confront you about it, either because you don't hang around those that would(ie. because they agree with you or don't feel it's their place to challenge your beliefs) or it simply isn't worth their time.

Normally I'm one to let people have their beliefs, but you came here to push your agenda, so I couldn't ignore it.


If you really want to bridge the gaps between groups, you have to actually understand what keeps them apart, not stick your head in the sand and hope it all works out because it suits your world view that they'll love each other if they are in the same room together. You will NEVER get everyone to love each other, move past that. Love is a powerful thing and creates just as much destruction as it does creation(I wonder sometimes if not more so). Ignore that to your own peril. I think the best example of a mage convention that bridged gaps I've seen so far was the Nutmeg convention that ran from 1994-2001. That was a VERY eclectic bunch. It was interesting to watch Satanic magicians side by side having convos with Christian magicians (as well as various other types). And the reason that could happen is respect. Respect breeds tolerance, and tolerance should be your goal, not love. It’s far more achievable, and works. Respect can generally only be achieved through education and understanding, not ignorance. But education can’t just be your own personal agenda, because that gets sniffed out VERY quickly and then discarded, even if it came from the right idea. The idea gets lost to the drama. KNOW what you are talking about and demonstrate it, don’t make assumptions because it fits your agenda. Otherwise you lose your credibility and then are ignored.

Now this was just an outright attack.

My purpose for coming here and starting this thread was to try to get people with similar and compatible interests and aspirations to get together for a type of "mini crucible" with the premise of a free exchange of ideas at this gathering...not to convert anyone, to invade territory, make myself seem extremely knowledgeable, start arguments or anything petty like that. If you sense any other motive behind my posting or reason for "spamming", it's because I'm affiliated with CoSM (as an intern/volunteer and part-time worker when needed to serve as a sub) and sincerely like helping the place out, especially when it fosters events such as these. No, I'm not getting any money out of doing this, or recognition, nor was I asked to do this or anything of the sort. I did so out of my own independent volition.

I never approached you or this forum with any petty or condescending remarks, or filled my words with any contempt or hostility. I didn't come here to compare "knowledge", try to make anyone feel stupid or flaunt myself around like a peacock. You asked me for more information and I simply answered. If I happened to offend anyone, I apologize for it was not intentional.

You will NEVER get everyone to love each other, move past that. Love is a powerful thing and creates just as much destruction as it does creation(I wonder sometimes if not more so).

...

Respect breeds tolerance, and tolerance should be your goal, not love. It’s far more achievable, and works. Respect can generally only be achieved through education and understanding, not ignorance.

It would seem here that you've already made your decision concerning the issue and stamped it with a mighty "so mote it be".

But education can’t just be your own personal agenda, because that gets sniffed out VERY quickly and then discarded, even if it came from the right idea. The idea gets lost to the drama. KNOW what you are talking about and demonstrate it, don’t make assumptions because it fits your agenda. Otherwise you lose your credibility and then are ignored.

Discarding Love as something trivial and primarily destructive without taking upon the proper research of the subject (or any such subject) just so you could hold onto your current perspective and strengthen your argument seems like a good example of an assumption made to fit your agenda.

Obviously you want to achieve something through the use of such hostility and authoritarian remarks. I'd like to kindly note that I never once used or said anything remotely close to "this is where you fail" or claiming superiority over another's understanding by blatantly calling them Ignorant. I approached you and your boards with respect and integrity. It would appear that you're projecting in order to cover up your own agenda of hostility towards this individual that you apparently view as an "invader" of sorts (or something like that).

If you want to be excessively hostile and territorial despite my sincerity and respectful demeanor, then...I suppose there's nothing I can do to stop that.

[Oyama]

Yes, ALL religions have been founded off of this perennial philosophy...the real ones anyway. Modern things such as TOS and the like are basically cults. Why? Because they weren't founded on this perennial philosophy.

Much as I hate to chime in, this statement jumped out at me. Circular reasoning is not a good way to make your point.

And DF, I think you're only focusing on one aspect of love. The "ideal" love you speak of does in fact exist, and people experience it all the time. The problem is the world is not that simple, where you experience this great love and live by it and all of a sudden everything is ok. The extreme joy and happiness caused by love is equalled only by the extreme pain and sorrow and destruction caused by love. The pretty picture does exist, but the world consists of more than just the pretty picture.

Arthur speaks bluntly, that is a fact, but he was not attacking you. I think he is trying to tell you that respect and tolerance, not love, are more realistic ways of getting people to interact amicably, and I happen to agree with him. Love is a powerful beast (for creation or destruction), not a peaceful little kitten. If you want to get people to interact peacefully, you don't want something like love involved. And getting everyone to love everyone else is just not going to happen. If you want evidence, look at history.

Discarding Love as something trivial and primarily destructive without taking upon the proper research of the subject (or any such subject) just so you could hold onto your current perspective and strengthen your argument seems like a good example of an assumption made to fit your agenda.

And acting like Love is all flowers and chocolate and peace shows either a severe lack of experience with the subject, or a denial of its darker side (I'm sorry if I sound condescending, but there's no nice way to say it). The only way to do real research on Love is to experience it, not read books and poems about it. We aren't making an assumption to support our perspective. Our perspective comes from our experience, it's not an assumption. Trust me, I wish our perspective was wrong, I really do.

You're not an invader and we don't have an agenda against you. You came here talking about something that Arthur and others have found to be false in their experiences. Like Storm said, it looks good on paper but it simply does not work in reality. It's not about agendas or covering anything up. Omni doesn't really have an agenda, it's actually specifically tailored against having any agendas.

As a side note, there is some evidence that thaumaturgy predates religion. And, most early primitive magic was NOT based on some idea of universal love, it was based on survival. Bring rain for the crops so your people could eat, good luck on the hunt so your people could eat, and good luck in war.

And as another side note, if you use magic as a broad term (which we do here at Omni), it is a larger subset than religion. Magic is the very idea that something exists beyond the mundane physical; religion or spirituality is just a particular direction this idea can go in. But, if you do not define magic this way, it may not work that way.

[LordArt]

@DF

As Oyama said, I am blunt. I find it gets to the heart of the truth far faster (and sometimes the only way) than fencing with diplomacy. Both have their place.


Unfortunately, in your reaction to my statements, you’ve done exactly what I’ve warned against.

Yes, ALL religions have been founded off of this perennial philosophy...the real ones anyway. Modern things such as TOS and the like are basically cults. Why? Because they weren't founded on this perennial philosophy.

Circular logic ends up destroying your credibility, which is what I was warning against. Especially when it only works by redefining words significantly to maintain that circle.

Religion is defined by:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

It is not your place(or mine) to decide what is and what is not a religion simply because it doesn’t fit your world view. Agreeing to the “morality” presented by TOS or COS has nothing to do with them being religion or not. I’m not agreeing with their morality either, but are stated as counter points.

You are also claiming authority over such subjects because the above wasn’t stated as your opinion/belief. So you saying you weren’t trying to “make myself seem extremely knowledgeable”, isn’t true, especially after the diatribe about the above subjects. If you claim authority, you better be ready to defend it, and defend it well.

I think your heart is in the right place, but I’ve seen too much damage caused by doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. In the end, my opinion doesn’t matter, you are going to do what you want to do. If I sniffed the flaws in your argument out so quickly, others will do it far more easily, and you don’t want to lose when it counts. I’m just some guy on a forum.



On the subject of things like COS and TOS only being around for 50 years or so, this incarnation of such things perhaps, but such religions have been around since man had religious authority to rebel against (let alone the desire for power). It just isn’t organized the way you might be use to (let alone recorded in history well, especially considering how poorly history is recorded. They either are spread out, or end up feeding on themselves to their own destruction, or take over). I know that Satanism has likely been around since the Catholics invented satan. (Satan is a title, not an entity, and many angels filled the job mythologically, the catholics simply made it an entity to rally the peasants behind them. It’s always easier to gather people against a common enemy than common good, even to a self-destructive end. History shows that time and again, even in recent history)


On the subject of love, I dismiss any blind faith in anything. Blind faith always leads to a bad end for somebody. Do I believe in true love? Yes, I am that idealistic. I’ve come closer than anyone I know, and I hope to again. And Oyama is correct, you are keeping your eyes on the prize and ignoring the pitfalls. Love can take a person to unbelievable heights and the darkest of hollows. Those that risk are trying for the former of course. But that is why it’s risk, but the latter is also possible. Regardless of which, love doesn’t come from no where. It has it’s own motivations for forming, and while proximity can work for a rare/unique some, it won’t work at large, let alone for everyone. If it did, every gathering would be a lovefest, and it certainly isn’t. I’m about practicality, and I was giving you a practical means to achieve your stated goal, which included pointing out obvious flaws in your argument that would work against you in your goals (since it would lead to your loss of credibility)


As far as magic being a superset of religion, I still stand by that point. At least for what we are talking about here. (Keep in mind, I’m talking about number of systems, not membership count, be it religion or magical system) There are more magical systems than there are religions. While I would say it’s probably possible to have a religion without magic SOMEWHERE in it, I can’t think of any. Even if it’s just a deity/entity/something doing it’s supernatural thing, regardless if the followers can do any of it. However, there are certainly MANY magical systems outside of religion, and therefore is a superset since it would include religions as well. (Yes, you can make a case its overlapping circles, but the magical circle would still be far larger).

As far as the Chewbacca defense goes see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense . In this case, I’m referring to you rattling off names of many religions and books doing a series of comparisons between religions and then the follow up claim that since it’s true for all that you’ve stated about religion then it has to be true for magic. Most people cave under such a display if they don’t have a solid counter argument, which is likely why you used it here, because it’s likely worked for you in the past.. I’m not saying it was a premeditated act, but let’s face it, people use what works for them. (And I’ll admit, I always wanted to call someone on using the Chewbacca defense anyways when they did so. )


And now on to specific points:

I also think you misread what I stated about non-online groups. How does: “They are made up of traditions that have prevented their information from being spammed across the internet, and they really have no interest in making themselves known to the current generation of practitioners at large” end up as your quote “as you already said, they willingly have been revealing themselves.” No, they are keeping quite secret. I just know about some because of my own direct contacts I’ve made over the years.. A lot of people do find what I do/have made interesting.

...thaumaturgy's actually a part of their training

That’s fine, but just because its part of someone’s religious training doesn’t mean that the majority of thaumaturgy is influenced or originated by religion and therefore your perennial philosophy (especially after already showing that not all religion follows what you call the “perennial philosophy”). You are making leaps of logic here that I don’t think you are seeing. A+B=C doesn’t mean A+B=Z.

And most certainly does not indicate how you figuire " judeo-christian magic (from which a good amount of thaumaturgic practices sprouted)" works. You are being VERY christian centric and ignore swaths of information by making such a statement. But this has been stated.

Now this was just an outright attack.

No, I am making you question your beliefs. Which is never a bad thing, unless you aren’t sure of them. Perhaps no one has actually made you think about them before.

You will NEVER get everyone to love each other, move past that. Love is a powerful thing and creates just as much destruction as it does creation(I wonder sometimes if not more so).
....
Respect breeds tolerance, and tolerance should be your goal, not love. It’s far more achievable, and works. Respect can generally only be achieved through education and understanding, not ignorance.

It would seem here that you've already made your decision concerning the issue and stamped it with a mighty "so mote it be".

People far older, wiser, with far more power and resources have tried and continuously failed throughout the centuries. You have presented nothing new, and therefore I see no reason why you would be different. Besides, “So mote it be” isn’t my style.

Discarding Love as something trivial and primarily destructive without taking upon the proper research of the subject (or any such subject) just so you could hold onto your current perspective and strengthen your argument seems like a good example of an assumption made to fit your agenda.

You don’t know me well enough to know what research I have or have not done, nor my experiences. I actually have done some research for this conversation, however, I don’t have the kind of time to read the large reading list you presented, and admittedly don’t have the inclination. There is a reason why older more often equals wiser than younger equals wiser. Simply because of actual experience if nothing else. As far as arguments go, it’s far harder to PROVE something than to disprove it. All you need to do to disprove something is have one thing that counters the argument, especially when the argument is presented in absolutes.

Please note that very rarely do I speak in absolutes because I know there are always exceptions. This is a lesson you have yet to learn it seems.

Obviously you want to achieve something through the use of such hostility and authoritarian remarks.

Hostile no, authoritarian, yes. You perceive it as hostile because it doesn’t toe your party line. And I have achieved what I was looking for, which was for you to reveal your true beliefs and motivations, in the hope that you will also see it and confront it. You cannot build something on shaky foundations, and if you are serious about your goal, you need to solidify yourself and your ideas. Such self evaluations are rarely pleasant.

I'd like to kindly note that I never once used or said anything remotely close to "this is where you fail" or claiming superiority over another's understanding by blatantly calling them Ignorant.

I didn’t initially, only after I saw that I actually knew more than you did, despite your reading pedigree, and that you were in for a rude awakening. There is no shame in ignorance other than what you tie to it. As I said before, I am blunt, so I call it as I see it. And the “And this is WHY you fail”, was more of a fun poke using Yoda quotes.

My purpose for coming here and starting this thread was to try to get people with similar and compatible interests and aspirations to get together for a type of "mini crucible" with the premise of a free exchange of ideas at this gathering...

I knew the gathering wouldn’t go down the way you stated, but was willing to be wrong, which is why I went. My experience showed it wouldn’t work the way you wished, which you later admitted that you make a mistake.

“not to convert anyone,”

As soon as you entered in the debate, then your goal was to convert. That is the purpose of a debate, to get the other person to see your point of view and agree. Doesn’t always work out that way, but that’s the goal of the debate.

“to invade territory,”

Whether you know it or not, your post wasn’t too different than a Christian going to a pagan site and asking everyone to attend one of their events. You didn’t ask an Admin for permission to post it, nor if it would be appropriate. The event was obviously meant for a very specific Christian/new agey subset/mindset and it wasn’t stated as such. It was stated as a magic/mage event, which it wasn’t. It's purpose was to promote an unrealistic and misguided world view. People have the right to have such a view, but I certainly don't want it promoted here, and it was promoted here under false pretenses.

No, I'm not getting any money out of doing this, or recognition, nor was I asked to do this or anything of the sort. I did so out of my own independent volition.

I never said money was involved or the like, nor did I think so. I think self-satisfaction was involved. You want to do good for good’s sake. The issue I have is things aren’t being looked at closely enough to understand the repercussions of one’s actions. It’s not too unlike the people at rallies signing a petition banning “Dyhydronium-Monoxide”. They sign it because then they feel they did something for the world. Not knowing they just signed a petition to ban water.

Your intent was to bring people to this event for the reasons of mutual networking and friendship making across different groups. But you put no (seemingly) actual thought as how to do this or what would actually happen if you got them all in one spot. You were making the false assumption it would just happen. You also made the false assumption that everyone has your view of religion and magic (and could be no other) and therefore would get along swell if the opportunity presented itself. You couldn’t conceive past your own circular logic of what amounts to a form of Christian fundamentalism, or at least to be fair, idealism of youth. (I had the latter too about Omni when I was your age, so don’t feel like your unique there. I had my own rude awakening).

In the end, it’s up to you what you take away from this. I can only hope it will start some introspection on your part. If in the process, it makes me an asshole in your eyes, then so be it. I understood that as the consequence when I started.

[draconic feathers]

ok...

While there are many points on which you're right there are also a number on which I know I am right about as well. Until I find a better way of expressing myself about these ideas I suppose they'll stay misunderstood. And yeah, you caught my stumbling, I'll definitely admit to that. But there are still those things that I know, in my heart, are right. I suppose this is why everyone has their own personal truths.

I still believe that one day everyone will be more capable of connecting hearts and ideas. 'till then I'll keep working towards that ideal in my own way.

At any rate it's nice to see that there's no hostility on your end. There's none on mine either