Sparring and name bias

[tinny]

Psionic sparring has become a very popular activity among psions lately. Or at least, lately I've been noticing it quite a bit more among new psions over on darkmyst.

People form reputations upon their name in the online energy community, and often times it seems people the in room watching have their expectations set on who is going to win beforehand. (This usually occurs without rules for the spar even being set, though that rant is for another day. )

A common example I hear in various communities is -- If you spar ANKA, you are probably going to lose. With this bias set, I am wondering if this puts the challenging party, in this case to ANKA, at a disdvantage and less likely to meet criteria to win the match.

With that question asked, it prompts me to ask something more -- How is it possible to eliminate this bias, in both the referee and participants sparring? Can we objectively measure skill in ways of meeting set criteria to win a spar?

Points to control these variables include:
1. Criteria to win the match must be set in clear terms.
2. Both participants must enter a seperate room free of idlers.
3. Participants must change their nick to something generic and non-associative to themselves or their normal online handle (A random assignment of numbers could work).
*It could be easy to cheat on this to figure out who you were sparring, and so unfortantely, honesty would be very important.*
4. Neither the ref's nor the participants sparring are allowed to know the true identity of the participants sparring until after all results have been given.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Draco_Platina]

I think it is unnecessary to make sparring done under such laboratory like conditions, but I do agree that there are many out there that bluff their way to the top. At which point they commence the penis waving contests... I usually have Felidae ref, because whenever I have, it's been accurate, and unbiased as far as I can tell. I don't seem to have a problem with the effect you've described, and very few people acknowledge me as a 'power to be reckoned with', because, well, I'm usually not.
back to the subject at hand, I do think things are out of hand, but such extreme clinical conditions just seem kind of ridiculous.

[Obsidian]

Nothing wrong with a good penis-wagging contest.

I've definately noticed this happening in the past. To the point where negative opinions about someone (who I knew well and trusted) contributed to him faring badly in a 'battle'.

As Draco said, the laboratory conditions aren't really necessary since when it comes down to it, the only thing a spar gets you is experience and an increase in skill. Not prize-money.

A reputation can be garnered but if you're gunning for a reputation (which isn't necessarily a terrible thing) then you're going to make sure that the ref is bias to your side anyway.

Whenever I've sparred the goal hasn't been to win or lose. To take down their shields or keep mine up. It's been to improve and notice something I hadn't noticed previously. It's been tailor-made to find the weakness in the shields and modify my own defenses accordingly. I've never sparred to win or lose. I've sparred to improve.

So many people out there have lost that objective and now 'fight' for the reputation. It's a shame =/

Sorry, got off-topic there.

Such cold rules aren't necessary if you're sparring to learn. But if you're fighting for prize money, then sure =) I'm all for it.

Though as a side-note, I've been told I didn't do something because someone of my skill (in the eyes of the ref) couldn't do it. Someone on my team said I could well do it, and that ended that sparring session. Sometimes unbias judges help so much.

[Oyama]

Well, though I have worked directly with people over the internet before, I've never actually sparred, so what I'm saying comes with a HUGE grain of salt.

I think anonymity is good for confirmation purposes. Even if you think the people are good enough to get past bias, it's better to not have it there in the first place. A big part of learning magic is being able to get confirmation from an objective perspective. It's hard to progress if you don't know what works and what doesn't.

[dolotous]

Until the time that a lab can be found for such an experiment sparring really shouldn't happen. People going around and forcing themselves to think they are causing pain or having pain caused, when nothing happened. Its quite sad. The other day I tested this sparring out, I dont shield, haven't in quite a few months. And within 10 seconds the ref said I was down to 30% shielding, and that the other was down to 10%. I never attacked the other person.
A week ago a similar situation happened. Just without the other shield going down. Its riddled with AOL.

Moral of the story: If you are going to AOL yourself. Do it with something useful. Take up healing so that at least the pseudo effects benefit someone.

(Edit: Yes, both spars were with people in the OEC who were acclaimed fighters. And they told me I had no chance.)

-Dolotous

[LordArt]

I'm not (and neither is Omni) part of the OEC. I've always found the OEC version of sparring dangerous since if you are causing enough damage to actually FEEL pain, then it's likely more perminant damage is being caused. I suppose it would be more akin to having a spar using knives, and it only counts if you draw blood. Sound great in a movie, but you end up with scars, or more serious damage from the wounds.

While I do believe strongly in learning to defend oneself, I'm not sure the schoolyard brawl is the way to learn. Too many students, and not enough competent teachers out there it seems.

[dolotous]

LordArt: According to the sole definition of OEC, you are a member of it as a whole, just not associated with the other communities that make up the whole. :p
And most of the kids that do these spars can't do anything anyway. So, its like buying those kiddy plastic knives that slip back inside the handle when you jab. Taking them and sparring. You can't do anything with it.

[LordArt]

According to the sole definition of OEC...

I suppose it would go by the official definition then. I guess I would have to see one to agree or disagree with it (Any idea where that might be? ). Omnimancy is primary physical groups, we just happen to have an online sattellite group. I've seen a lot of people online think that we are exclusively online , when the reality is the opposite. But it's normal to base opinions on what one sees, and they only meet OmniCyber. I'm not sure that one sattellite group online puts us into OEC, and I'll admit I don't think I'll ever term us that.

I'd prefer to put Omnimancy in the direct magic category than "Energy" category.

I would agree that most of the OEC that I've seen ARE kids with delusions of grandure of being Goku. They haven't learned that the real meat of what they do doesn't come from websites. Which to be honest is why I'd like to NOT be associated with the OEC. The OEC has a tendency of being a bunch of 15 year olds (or older people that have hung around 15 year olds too long and act like them), blowing wind up each other's asses on how cool and powerful they are.

I've even heard stories of people going into the public chat here from the OEC saying they were going to copy/steal some of the Omni's stuff by scanning them in the chat. Good luck.

[dolotous]

Haha, I know quite a few people who have tried that. For some reason they never listen when someone says to keep out. There are restrictions on the knowledge for a reason. - And they probably wont get it if they tried that method anyway. So take up the laughs.

I knew you guys were based in NJ with physical groups, but accordingly thought that you were more internet based, but that's because I dont live in NJ.

And yeah, walk into one of those sparring rooms once in a while, you'll notice that they all are quite delusional.

[Obsidian]

I don't think it's really fair to take the high ground and call them all delusional kiddies. Granted, a lot of them are misguided and aren't achieving the results they believe they are. But it'd be foolish to totally discredit them.

Irrespective of how hard it is to believe or not I know for a fact that there's a lot of damage that can be done by the younger, horn-blowing mages. It's precisely because they aren't doing what they think they are, that they're causing damage.

The old 'Bull in a china shop' adage springs to mind. They rush in to scan something and wind up cracking you over the head, or their special construct designed to introduce a toxin into your shield gets into your own system and starts corrupting stuff.

Their power comes from the fact that their inner's pay a lot of attention when the big brothers are around. I've seen many a case where a fledgling will think he's made a ball and hurl it at his opponent. His inner has assessed the situation and decided something bigger and better is more appropriate, however, and you've got yourself one hell of a headache.

It is kind've funny the way people waltz in and think they're going to copy your goods. Also a good test of whether you deserve to have said goods.

[FireEssence]

I think in this case people often overlook the fact that just because the practice may be done by quite a few who don't know what they're doing that there is also a percentage of people who actually can gain useful experience from sparring (such as in the areas targetting, energy manipulation, spell-construction, scanning, etc.).

Just because most of the mainstream "psychics" we see publishing books (think Sylvia Browne) come off as nutters, does that mean we should rule out EVERY book written about spirituality or psychism? No. There are always exceptions, even when there are none.

I know that for me, when I first stumbled upon the greater psionic community when I was early in my adolescence, I myself was one of those deluded "more apt to hurt himself than scan a shield" type kiddies-- however, as my experience grew from other practices etc. I got to a point where sparring actually WAS more than just AOL and a pissing contest, and regularly saw enough effects and blind-test scans by refs to see that when you have skilled individuals involved, it actually can be a good learning experience.

So do I solicit energetic "sparring" as a means of hardcore training? Not really. I do however think that even the intermediately experienced energywork can get some practical and positive experience from it, when it isn done with people who are responsible and decently intelligent. *shrugs*

[LordArt]

I don't think it's really fair to take the high ground and call them all delusional kiddies.

I don't think anyone said all. I said most. Which means by definition over 50% and not 100%. Obviously there are some worthy psions or else there wouldn't have been any in Omnimancy in the past. Unfortunately, stereotypes usually come from the majority of a group acting a certain way, and you yourself seemed to state that a majority do. I have not written off the psion community, or even the OEC at large as useless. I see it much like I see the 90/10 rule. 90% of the work is done by 10% of the people. In many groups, not just psions or OEC, that is true. To me, only the 10% (which is probably being unfair, but works for this example) are willing to put the time and effort into their craft (ie. psion skills/OEC skills) to become proficient and not a bunch of yahoos. That's true in any group unfortunately, and especially true for a completely unregulated group that no one has the authority to cull the herd.

Admittedly, the psion/OEC group as a whole is self-culling after a fashion. As the high-school students or college students move out into the real world, they find they don't have the time for such things. If because they are too lazy or got blasted enough times not to be able to do much anymore, they leave their psion training behind. Those that got proficient enough, still hold on because, for them, the time is worth the effort in a world where they have no more free time, and it matters that much to them. I mean, how many non-college/non-High School students to you really see in the OEC in comparison to the afore mentioned younger group?

However, I'll admit I'm not an authority on such subjects. I only have second hand knowledge of the disposition of the OEC, and that is my perception based on that knowledge, so take it as it is.

...I know for a fact that there's a lot of damage that can be done by the younger, horn-blowing mages. It's precisely because they aren't doing what they think they are, that they're causing damage.

I never said they couldn't do harmful damage. People wouldn't be getting the bits blasted out of them in sparring matches if that wasn't the case. I'm saying they aren't taking it seriously enough to get that hitting each other with proverbial baseball bats, probably isn't the best idea. And just because they walk away, doesn't mean that they'll be fine because they take a shower and have a good night's rest afterward. Even back in the day when I sword practiced with my friends with wooden bokens we would stand far enough apart that even if we missed we couldn't actually hit each other (worst case we'd hit each other's hands).

As far as inner's stepping up the power...well, they do that. But so called "magical beginners luck" actually DOES have a purpose. Basically, to get the person to see they can do something significant enough that they should take it serious. But it doesn't always work out that way in my experience. Besides, some inner's have too much ego.

It is kind've funny the way people waltz in and think they're going to copy your goods. Also a good test of whether you deserve to have said goods.

Well, I've said before that if they can do it, then they do deserve it. And if someone in Omni hasn't been encrypting their stuff so it CAN be copied, they should be shot.

@FireEssence

Well, the signal to noise ratio in magic is REALLY bad, as I'm sure you know. It's so bad in fact that unless I've personally verified the authenticity of someone's work, I do not give it full credence. I'm a skeptic at heart, always have been. Omnimancy exists the way it does because it was an attempt to wash away the sea of BS that seems to be out there. Start from scratch rather than basing it on a shaky foundation of something else (which has worked for it in terms of effectiveness, but also against it in terms of acceptance).

I personally think sparring is a good way of training UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. It forces the person to learn to cast, as well as sense real time. It forces them to think on their feet, and gives them valuable experience in case a real life situation actually arises. If one is learning to fight, those that have more experience can and do critique the fight and show them other possibilities/techniques/tactics or even give tech out based on the style of fighting the person uses, so they are more apt to use it effectively and naturally(versus reverting to raw will). However, just blasting each other isn't that good environment. Even when an Omni spars and doesn't yet know how to fight to turn off their opponent's magic (i.e. shutting them down), then more elder Omnis will put shields on both opponents so they CAN'T hurt each other. They put their own stuff over top, and the elders report when there is a breach based on what their own shield tells them. But once people know how to shutdown, it's always to the shutdown, even at high level....Especially at high level.

[Draco_Platina]

Recently, someone came into an IRC channel that I frequent and started with a 'you guys are stupid and sparring is useless because you've never been in 'real battle'.' They also pushed the notion that sparring will in no way help when it comes to actual combat, to which I say; do I sit on my hands until someone tries to rough me up? Or do I flail my sword around until I get a feel for it and I'm no longer flailing? I much prefer the latter.
To me, it seems people like this, while they may have experienced 'real combat', are arrogant to the point of attracting unwanted attention.
Now, let me relate all this to the subject at hand; while many don't have any combat experience and do a lot of blasting eachother in spars, there are the few that have. It seems many of them think this sets them far above and beyond those that haven't. What're everyone's thoughts on this? Does some 'actual combat' experience actually set these people so far above the ones that don't?

[Obsidian]

Sir Arthur:

The majority of my reply was actually aime at Dolotous. He/She uses numerous definites like "Never" and "All'. It just frustrates me to see someone take the higher ground like that and (in a fashion) put down everyone as a result.

I've been on both the delivering and recieving end of psionic sparring. And I can tell anyone interested for a fact that there's a lot of youngin's out there who can do damage. Granted, the damage is usually when they scan or 'send' a construct *shakes his head* I dunno how many times I've been smacked into when someone asked to scan me.

You're right of course, in that there ARE quite a few delusional people out there. From my experience the majority don't do what they think they're doing, and the ones that're actually achieving the results they think they are still don't know much about what they're DOING.

The biggest problem is the cream of the crop that floats to the top is skimmed off before it has a chance to spread any truth or safety to the community.

On the rare occassions where they stick around and try to benefit (such as Storm did with Psiscape) they wind up becoming derided and put down by the other 'top dogs' who feel their position is in danger of being contested.

I agree on the Beginner's Luck thing as well. It's so exhilerating to get that sudden clarifying bit of sensory data, or create something far more powerful than you thought you could. Having a total success where you were expecting outright failure.

It becomes something to work towards and strive for. The ability to do something of such calibre regularly.

I like the way Omni's spar. The 'elder', more experienced Omni use a powerful, unbreakable shield which you cast over... Leaves you free to hurl even your most potent nuclea devices because there's a near-negligible chance youll actually crack the 'elders' shield.. so much safer than, "Ok.. I've got one up I think. Have a shot at it.. Owfuckthathurt!!"

I remember being involved in an Omni spar once. The observers were safely positioned behind shield 'walls' and we were in special battle suits. Weird and (at the time) way over my head. Immensely fun and educational though =)

[LordArt]

Does some 'actual combat' experience actually set these people so far above the ones that don't?

I will say having been in real battle DOES set you apart, but not to the point of saying it makes you "so far above" to tell others not to bother. There is a big difference between fighting people you know in a freindly match versus fighting for your life. How one handles oneself/performs under pressure, let alone gaining experience in how fights unfold in real world terms is VERY valuable.

Normal sparring gives you the training to have the reflex to have a clue when something comes up. However, getting use to the pressure of a real life situation only comes from actually being there. So a veteran of many real combats is going to do FAR better in the next one, than a person that has only sparred in general.

I remember telling LC about several stories about what the group has done over the years as anecdotes. And they are stories when you hear them, and they are interesting, but it's like hearing/seeing a movie, or reading novel...There is a disconnect to the reality of it. Then we invited her along on something that came up (as these things do). She was paying SOO much attention to what she was assigned to do that she couldn't see what was going on larger scale. Being in that panic and real life situation, even though she knew she was safe (well, mostly. ) was an experience and gave her a completely different perspective and respect for the stories she had heard before. It always sounds so easy when someone else talks about it. She did end up taking it to heart and went and got real life experience on her own purposely, after asking how to do it in her case. And it's been good for her in my opinion, and now she can truely handle herself. I think it should be interesting how she comes out in her bracket in the tournament.

The biggest problem is the cream of the crop that floats to the top is skimmed off before it has a chance to spread any truth or safety to the community.

I don't think it would matter to be honest. People opperate too independantly from each other and don't listen to each other. They have no reason to. You do have some leaders out there, but they only control their own.

Perhaps the site owners who push this information in the first place should push more about safety. Who knows.