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Separating Magick and Spirit

A forum where any kind of magic may be discussed, include Theurgy and it's appropriate musings. This is not moderated.
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Postby EtuMalku » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:41 am

Thanks LordArt

That said:

I would then like to discuss the very topic of separating Magick and Spirit

Crowley defines Magick as "the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the Will."

The Magical Operation may be defined as any event in nature which is brought to pass by Will.

For Crowley, the practice of Magick—although it equally applies to mundane things, like balancing the checkbook—is essentially to be used for attaining the Knowledge and Conversation of one's Holy Guardian Angel (which he believed was the first step necessary for spiritual attainment).

Now of course Al is not the end all in terms of defining what Magick is.

Thaumaturgy (from the Greek words θαῦμα thaûma, stem thaumat-, meaning "miracle" or "marvel" and ἔργον érgon, meaning "work") is the capability of a saint or magician to work miracles. It is sometimes translated into English as wonderworking.

This seems to embody Spirit immensely, I was wondering if someone would explain to me how Magick & Spirituality are actually separate and of what kind of Magick is practiced here among you?

Thank you for your time,
EM
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Postby LordArt » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:17 pm

Note: I split out the topic since I didn't want the forum mission statement to become a discussion thread...

This seems to embody Spirit immensely, I was wondering if someone would explain to me how Magick & Spirituality are actually separate and of what kind of Magick is practiced here among you?


I guess one would need to define Spirit and Spirituality. Most of what you wrote about Crowley or the Thaumaturgy definition doesn't mention spirit at all. It's when you get to "Knowledge and Conversation of one's Holy Guardian Angel", you outright mention at that point he's going for spiritual attainment. But then that's HIS goal WITH his magic, not that magic itself HAS to be toward such a goal.

Do you consider it spiritual to drive your car? Do you consider it spiritual to make yourself dinner? CAN you make these processes have a religious or spiritual overtone, sure. But those overtones aren't their inherant nature, but can be used for such. (ie. driving your car could be part of some "spiritual journey" to a place, or just the fact of the travel, and the meal could be a ritual meal, etc. Or could be driving to work and getting a snack in before you get some sleep at night. It can be either way. But do you see the difference?) Spirituality is what you assign it to be. It really depends on the reasons WHY you do something if it's spiritual or not.

Now, I'm not saying that the magic we do here doesn't USE one's spiritual body, but technically one can say that any action USES your spiritual body, including you telling your fingers to type out a message. The commands come from your mind which resides in your spiritual body, which then issues commands to your astral body, which then does so to your physical body. Each has it's own mechnisms, but that's another topic. But simply because one uses one's spiritual body doesn't make any action with it spiritual by nature.

My goals with magic aren't for religious or spiritual enlightenment. Have I used it to gain knowledge? Sure. Just like you might use google to gain knowledge to find something. Have I met other entities and talked to them (including deities), sure. I don't worship any of them, and my perspective of them is they are just people too. Most of them are over hyped up like a rockstar or movie star. Most are heads of state, with their needs, flaws and agendas. Doesn't change what they are able to do, but to me doesn't turn them into something that needs worshiping.

When you ask/pray to a diety to do X for you, does he/she/it intern pray to something else to do it for them? Is their magic spiritual for them? Or do they just do the action as they see fit, much like you might put something together that you bought from the store? Omnimancy is based to a large extent on observation, which includes observation of how astral entities do their magic, including dieties. Over the years that has yielded interesting results as you might imagine, but that's a seperate conversation.

I'm not saying magic should be used without wisdom, but one could say that about any action. It should be used responsibly, and the concequences of using it in the way it's used needs to be accepted, but again, that is true of any action one takes.

Spiritual growth/enlightenment is a different goal than simply doing work. Magic is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Magic as a tool for enlightenment is rather inefficient, and one would do better with meditation.

As far as what we do here, the public documents show an EXTREMELY low level version of what we do, but you'll notice there is no mention of the power coming from entities or requiring diety to get involved to do anything. It's starts with simple techniques of how to move "magical" energy and how to sense it. It goes from there.

Let's start with this and see where it goes from there if the above didn't answer your question.
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Postby EtuMalku » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:32 pm

Well . . . that was most enlightening (pun intended LOL)
I am much clearer as to what this place is all about, thank you.

As for defining Spirit & Spirituality, no I do not associate them with a religious belief. Though I am a Luciferic Asetianist, I do have my own concepts of existence and the laws of existence.

I am a retired touring musician (don't ask, I am not telling) perhaps one of those 'rockstars' you mentioned . . . LOL!
These days I am writing a profound book on sacred sound: 'Unio Musiqa'

I am convinced that our very existence owes itself to the Primordial Vibration from the Big Bang. Through the science of Cymatics and Harmonographogy along with sacred music and sound and Acoustics I have theories and concepts, many of them Majiqal

Perhaps, this field fits better within Omnimancy?
I do hope so as find the little available to be interesting, perhaps you should just let me in . . . :) as I 'do' reside here in northern NJ
If your members are half as intriguing & intelligent as yourself, I would be honored to meet up with them.
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Postby LordArt » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:36 am

I do hope so as find the little available to be interesting, perhaps you should just let me in . . . as I 'do' reside here in northern NJ


OmniCore has 5 newbies right now (a husband and wife team joined up about a month ago), so Core is full right now. I'll pass along your interest to the head of OmniNorth since I don't know what is going on up there. So we'll see.

If your members are half as intriguing & intelligent as yourself, I would be honored to meet up with them.


They are a varied lot to be sure. :) Thanks for the compliment.


And as a plug (which will make an old Omni Jeff rather happy since he runs it), a good chunk of us will be at http://www.wickedfaire.com/wicked09/index.html on the latter end of February, which is in Whippany. You could always meet us then.
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Magic and Technology

Postby Khem Caigan » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:16 pm

EtuMalku wrote:I was wondering if someone would explain to me how Magick & Spirituality are actually separate...

The idea that the "supernatural" is involved in magic is a
recent one.

Originally, the term magic simply referred to power, and
ability.

Magic and mechanism are cognate terms:

" The word 'Magic' is a derivation from a Latin term
Magia [Greek Mageía, Iranian Persian form Magu(s)].

The word is also related to the Greek notions Mechos,
Mechane, the Gothic Mahts, German Macht; the Indo-
European verb stem -Magh signifies 'to be able, to help'. "

~ Dieter Harmening, citing the entries by Kluges
and Mackensen on the subject of Magic in the
Etymologisches Worterbuch der Deutschen
Sprache
.

Which is why at least one meaning of the old term
'Magike Techne' can be Mechanical Technology.

And here is a pertinent quote from Mary Ellen Pitts :

"The Greek magike is tekne, referring to the sorcerer's
art, related to the Persian magus and the Indo-European
root magh-', meaning "to be able" or "to have power."

Closely related is the root magh-os-, meaning "that which
enables" and becoming the Doric makhos, "device,"
"machine," "mechanism."

Tekne, as art or skill, is also related to weaving and
textiles and to technology. <note the etymological
relationship with "tantra">

Magic thus belongs to a family of words to which both art
and technology belong.

As Heidegger notes, there was a time when tekne
incorporated art, not exclusively technology.

In magic the two come together, as technology and art,
science and Heidegger's "saving power" of reflection. "

~ from :

Toward a Dialogue of Understandings:
Loren Eiseley and the Critique of Science

by Mary Ellen Pitts

"The mathematical disciplines are so necessary and
cognate to magic that if anyone should profess the
latter without the former, he would wander totally
from the path and attain the least desired result.

For whatever things are or are effected in the
inferior or natural virtues are all effected and
governed by number, harmony, motion and light,
and have their root and foundation in these."

~ Henry Cornelius Agrippa
Three Books of Occult Philosophy

"Nature is a magician, as Plotinus and Synesius say,
everywhere baiting traps with particular foods for
particular objects...

The farmer prepares his field and seeds for gifts from
heaven and uses various grafts to prolong life in his
plant and change it to a new and better species. The
physician, the scientist and the surgeon bring about
similar effects in our bodies...

The philosopher, who is learned in natural science
and astronomy and whom we are wont rightly to call a
magician, likewise implants heavenly things in earthly
objects by means of certain alluring charms used at
the right moment."

~ Marsilio Ficino

See also :

The History Of Western Magic :
Some Considerations

by Dieter Harmening
Folklore Volume 17 ( .PDF )
http://tinyurl.com/c9qrh3

Journal For The Academic Study Of Magic 2
edited by Alison Butler, Dave Evans
Indo-European *mag(h)
http://tinyurl.com/dflp8a
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Postby EtuMalku » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:29 pm

Wow, that took a while . . . :o

I will have to disagree with the statement
The idea that the "supernatural" is involved in magic is a recent one.
as there was little to no separation between spiritual, supernatural, magic and life in ancient Egypt, India, Persia and Mesopotamia.
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Magic and Technology

Postby Khem Caigan » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:58 pm

What the moderns split off as supernatural was still regarded
as physics by the ancients. Spirit was still stuff, albeit rarefied
stuff.
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