Jumper

[Obsidian]

Ok, so this is more than just 'general' discussion. It's also got possible magic undertones.

Hands up who's seen the movie "Jumper"? Apart from the fact that it's quite the damn good movie, it's raised a few questions in my mind.

For those that have seen it this next part will probably make a whole lot more sense.

The method by which they jump is what peaked my curiousity. At times of great crisis (and then with eventual control) they spontaneously created a wormhole and effectively jumped through it. They're able to jump whatever they desire if they're in contact with it..

If they're doing it by creating a wormhole, the question must be asked. They're using their mind to create the worm-hole, that's a given. Is there anything in Omni's sphere of experience that relates to this at all, in the physical sense?

I know astrally wormholes are common-place. I've worked with them myself, though on a much less grand scale than I imagine would be possible.

Since science has proven wormholes are able to be created and sustained (using a shitload of weird energies and anti-matter in the lab) they're definitely possible. The powers of the mind are also as-yet not completely understood or explored, with many, many things being achieved mentally that seem (or seemed) impossible.

Given my experience with wormholes, I've found it not to be a shitload of energy causing the tunnel. The way science has created them thus far has been akin to brute force, in my mind. Like punching through the steel sheet of reality using the intense power of the energies they mess with.

Astrally, creating a wormhole was more like twisting and pressing at the right spots. It was a thing of subtlety and technique, not brute force. Using the right tools to gently make your way through.

In the film "Jumper" they even highlight this with the machine used by the Paladins. Science is again using brute force.

With a correct understanding of the make-up of reality (conscious or unconscious) it seems, to me, that it would be possible to push the right ways and pull the right threads to make a wormhole..

In my mind it's vastly different to teleporting (scientifically or otherwise) because the actual form doesn't change or relocate at all. 'Jumping' the way they did was effectively stepping through a tunnel...

Anyways, I think I've repeated the same thing a few times over. Has Omnimancy worked with, or encountered anything, that's similar or relates to physical wormholes created using the mind? It's been playing on my mind quite heavily and I figured that if anyone would have had any experience with it, you guys would be the ones to ask.

[LordArt]

Yes, Jumper was a good movie, I liked it! Very mage-esk (if there is such a word)

In anycase, it prompted more the political ramifications conversations with my friends than the How-to. Meaning, the lack of organized jumpers to assassinate the Palidans, a force to hold their own in line, etc. But that would have gone against the point of the movie of "total freedom". But I digress.

As far as what they were doing, I would considering akin to rifting, but also creating a "shielded" area first to define what is going through the hole. This becomes more obvious when they try to take something larger than themselves. Also, while direct touch helps, considering what happens toward the end with his grand escape(without trying to spoil things), says that contact isn't needed, just helpful. But this is Hollywood, not physics class. But I digress....(I do that alot. )

In anycase, yes, we've tried physical rifting a LONG time back. I KNOW it can be done, for reasons I won't go into on a public forum, but it is a nut that hasn't be cracked yet. Random things perhaps, but nothing conclusive certainly. And certainly not repeatable. More like random accidental anecdotes by individual members on their own time, versus during an experiment to replicate it. The apparent problem is physics change as you get closer to the physical realm, so much of the forces you ignore in the astral now have to be accounted for, which one isn't use to doing. Then it's a matter of identifying those forces, etc. It's far easier to bend and twist the fabric than break it, at least on a physical level. But from what I understand, even a G3 would have sufficient power to do what the jumpers were doing IF they knew how, to a lesser degree. Power isn't the answer, I will tell you that.

It's been something I've been thinking about but haven't made much headway with since the original rifting experiments that were done in the 2000 era. While it may be interesting to revisit them considering how much has been learned elsewhere since then, it is harder to motivate people to do what has already been done.

[Obsidian]

Wow, that was a good answer.

I can see where you're coming from regarding the physical contact aspect. It reminds me of proprioception. After spending a lot of time practicing various empathic things in the good old days, I'd be able to 'feel' through objects, like they were a part of my physical body.

I could tell exactly what position and location whatever I was holding was in, just as well as I could define the positioning of the hand holding it. In my mind, something like that is how most of them had to operate in order to jump things. As you so rightly said, the part closer to the end shows that it's far less essential than it seems throughout.

It also parallels my practices in the sense that I've been able to feel things as a part of me, at a distance. They didn't have to be in physical contact to still be connected. Perhaps that's how the movie is supposed to work? =)

Before I go any further I'll define the term 'Rifting' as I read it and use it. I've had issues with my interpretations in the past so I'm gonna nip this before it starts =)

To me, a rift is a 'violent' thing. The action of rifting puts me in mind of tearing or forcing. This could come from too many video games where the demons create a rift in space through the various villanies. I'm not sure if you're using the term 'rift' in a violent or powerful/intense sense though.

I never really thought of the concept you threw in there, about the 'shielded' area's. Since you've mentioned it and effectively dis-proved their need for physical contact, it seems absolutely essential. Given practices here and abouts it doesn't seem as though it would be too difficult to achieve something of that effect though.

Throughout the movie, and probably one of my favourite parts, was how their shielded 'exclusion zone' changes and/or breaks down. When Griffin takes the guys for a swim he doesn't have it tight enough, hence brings back water. The better one, and also a great demonstration of the violence and power at use in their emotional jumps, is when our heroic protagonist jumps to the hospital and pretty much shatters the place.

Something moving with the amount of force required to have that impact would suffer serious damage itself so they must be able to generate quite an intense personal 'shielding'.

It's quite interesting to me that, despite you knowing it can be done (which is something I'd love to hear more about, perhaps in PM, unless it's beyond me), very little work has been done with physical rifting in a long time. Given the dates you say, you're looking at almost 10 years of solid research and power-building.

The fact a G3-equivalent, someone with exponentially insignificant (power-wise) in comparison to yourself, Art, would have the power to create a rift says to me that you'd be able to make some serious headway into a field such as this with the right motivation and research team.

A few other things I'd like to draw some attention to.

Firstly the laws of physics changing. I mean, even from the little I've experienced I've seen the changes that become apparent. It just seems hard for me to grasp that they're difficult to identify. Having said that, I CAN see where the difficulty would come from. Any idiot can see an apple falls. It takes a different sort all-together to figure out why it fell..

If you're able to correctly identify WHAT changes as you become closer and closer to a physical realm, then it would mean you'd adjust your parameter's ever-so-slightly, allowing for the new effects that have come into play...

But it's never that simple, is it =)

Something else that caught my eye, though..

"It's far easier to bend and twist the fabric [of reality] than break it, at least on a physical level."

The way that's written, and this might be me mis-interpreting things wrong says that it's possible to break/tear the fabric of reality. Am I reading that right?

Thanks again for a thorough response. As always it's generated more questions in my mind than it's answered, but that's the only way to learn and the only way I'd like it =) It might be worth approaching a few of the newer students who haven't been involved in the rifting experiments of old, too. I'm sure there'd be some that would be thinking along these lines.

[LordArt]

Before I go any further I'll define the term 'Rifting' as I read it and use it. I've had issues with my interpretations in the past so I'm gonna nip this before it starts =)

To me, a rift is a 'violent' thing. The action of rifting puts me in mind of tearing or forcing. This could come from too many video games where the demons create a rift in space through the various villanies. I'm not sure if you're using the term 'rift' in a violent or powerful/intense sense though.

I think I should define terms as well, which is a good thing. (I see you've been hanging out here too much. )

rifting: More of a slang term for opening up a hole in the realm's fabric that leads "somewhere else". Sometimes to a different layer of the same realm along a different dimensional direction, sometimes all the way out to what we term as the "black astral", but there are other places it can go too, since in the end, you are talking about a transport mechanism to traverse a different dimensional direction than what is normal for the layer of the realm you are in. Perhaps also termed as dimensional tunneling.

(If you live in the ocean, you can traverse in the ocean's water, but normally not on land or in the air, let alone outer space. Each "layer" has it's own environmental requirements to successful navigate and survive, let alone manipulate what is in that environment.)

A "gate" in a classical magical sense, is rifting, just more formalized, and controlled. A rift is more free standing and therefore potentially more rough around the edges so to speak. Old school astral travel to get anywhere, one might create gates. More modern methods, you just move through the realm's layers/membranes along a certain extra dimensional direction to get where you wish to go. (Yes, I'm trying to use proper terms here).

Throughout the movie, and probably one of my favourite parts, was how their shielded 'exclusion zone' changes and/or breaks down. When Griffin takes the guys for a swim he doesn't have it tight enough, hence brings back water. The better one, and also a great demonstration of the violence and power at use in their emotional jumps, is when our heroic protagonist jumps to the hospital and pretty much shatters the place.

I have to admit, I loved the crater effect.

Something moving with the amount of force required to have that impact would suffer serious damage itself so they must be able to generate quite an intense personal 'shielding'.

They wouldn't necessarily need a heavy field, just matter far enough away from what they care about to take the impact (like the air). The issue is the movement of a great deal of mass, and the resulting explosion/implosion it causes. Case and point, when that one guy tries to charge one of the palidans, he does a series of quick jumps to accelerate himself forward, probably riding the shockwave forward.

It's quite interesting to me that, despite you knowing it can be done (which is something I'd love to hear more about, perhaps in PM, unless it's beyond me), very little work has been done with physical rifting in a long time. Given the dates you say, you're looking at almost 10 years of solid research and power-building.

It just means the issues surrounding it hasn't been solved in that same almost 10 years. Much of the brick walls we hit come back to the same issue. If it is solved for one, it is likely solved for all. And if it is solved, then we become truly scary, and that has larger ramifications than just making a rift.

The fact a G3-equivalent, someone with exponentially insignificant (power-wise) in comparison to yourself, Art, would have the power to create a rift says to me that you'd be able to make some serious headway into a field such as this with the right motivation and research team.

It isn't a power issue. We know this. If for no other reason than for the very reason you say.

A few other things I'd like to draw some attention to.

Firstly the laws of physics changing. I mean, even from the little I've experienced I've seen the changes that become apparent. It just seems hard for me to grasp that they're difficult to identify. Having said that, I CAN see where the difficulty would come from. Any idiot can see an apple falls. It takes a different sort all-together to figure out why it fell..

If you're able to correctly identify WHAT changes as you become closer and closer to a physical realm, then it would mean you'd adjust your parameter's ever-so-slightly, allowing for the new effects that have come into play...

But it's never that simple, is it =)

If you build a modern building, how often to do you consider the strong and weak force that keeps the nucleus of an atom together? If one hadn't done subatomic research, one might not even know anything beyond gravity and electro-magnetism exists because those are the obvious ones on a macro scale. There are likely other forces that since there hasn't been a practical reason to account for them, physics hasn't identified. Yet, in the physical realm, matter doesn't change or form by thought alone. However, in the astral, it can be. Different fundamental forces are at work and keep the realm in question stable and in it's own environment. We all are trying to make how things work in the astral work in the physical, but it isn't that easy.

Opening rifts, doing dimensional tunneling, etc. is rather easy in the astral if you know what you are doing (and sometimes even if you don't know what you are doing!) The one conclusion that I have come to is that you HAVE to play by the rules of physics for the realm you are affecting. Doesn't mean that the current physicists have it all cracked. If anything, they are starting to see how screwed up reality REALLY is, with all possibilities existing at the same time for a quantum event. To me, that shows how reality can shift from an outside source, and why it can be harder to change a known event than an unknown one.

The issue comes down to is the methods and techniques that are used to accomplish things in the astral work best there. It's like starting over to do it in the physical. However, there HAS to be a cross-over technique, and that hasn't been found yet. (Meaning a means of transferring one's skill to apply to the physical).

Even physics acknowledges that particles come in and out of the reality all the time. Omni has identified "quantum singularities" that are all over the place and only last for about 20-30 seconds (and only stable for about 10). We use it for one of our more advanced techniques, but the multiverse (and even this universe) is stranger than people think, and it certainly isn't as straight forward as one might hope.

Like anything else, if it was "that easy" it would be common place. That fact that it isn't common place, shows it's difficulty.

Something else that caught my eye, though..

"It's far easier to bend and twist the fabric [of reality] than break it, at least on a physical level."

The way that's written, and this might be me mis-interpreting things wrong says that it's possible to break/tear the fabric of reality. Am I reading that right?

Of course it is possible to tear reality. (Break would mean something different to me and would be more a global problem to reality itself than a hole that a tear would be). But like anything else, one has to have the knowledge and the resources to do it. Matter can enter and leave this realm. As I mentioned before, physics acknowledges that, but for them, it's at a particle level. If those natural points of enter/exit exist, than why not make them macroscopic (and that certainly would be a tear. Almost literally tearing reality a new a-hole)?

And beyond the "natural" means, things are always able to be destroyed, no matter how big, if one has the means. Doesn't mean it's a good idea, and in your best interests, or the repercussions are acceptable, but it's possible.

Thanks again for a thorough response. As always it's generated more questions in my mind than it's answered, but that's the only way to learn and the only way I'd like it =) It might be worth approaching a few of the newer students who haven't been involved in the rifting experiments of old, too. I'm sure there'd be some that would be thinking along these lines.

Dan is already pursuing it, and honestly, Justin and perhaps the "new kid on the block" Fred will likely also pursue a different direction to solve the issues. We'll see if the rest of Omni can get a good direction and set up some really hardcore experiments in such directions.

[Oyama]

As far as I can tell, Dan is doing the physics thing (which I had been planning on doing until I realized I wanted to pursue a different career) to find the "cross-overs" or points where physical reality and "magical" reality intersect. As for me, I'm planning on studying the biggest, most advanced and probably most obvious example of physical magic in this universe: Incarnate Life. My job gives me a lot of opportunities to observe interactions between the soul and the meat puppet, the most notable and pertinent of which being death (and to a lesser extent, birth), as morbid as that sounds. I recently had a potentially unstable patient, but it hadn't occurred to me at the time to take a look at what was going on astrally (I haven't really started the research itself yet). I've looked back, with some interesting revelations, but I still want to do some real-time observations, or at least take some detailed real-time scans for later study. I also haven't had my first death yet.

Given the stage of my current research into astral biology, I do have a plan, as there are places in the soul I know where to look where I might (hopefully) see interesting things happening regarding the permanent separation of the soul from the body, or just interactions in general. I hope to find the cross-over points and study them, in order to test and use any concepts I learn from such study. Whether this will lead to such things as physical rifting, I do not know, but it should have some interesting consequences regarding physical healing.

As Dan so aptly put it, "We need more field researchers."

[Azazen]

Shouldn't studying how telekineses works from an astral perspective show how energy gets to the physical realm in the way that you need? Also I thought that every action in the physical had some kind of reaction in the astral, wouldn't reverse engineering those effects be enough to learn how it works?

[LordArt]

Unfortunately, it's easier said than done. We've done "water experiments" in the past to prove certain reactions of more folk magic and how they accomplish what they do for example. While there was an effect, there wasn't a direct correlation, more an effect or field effect. The problem was, dependent on the object, different effects occurred. While it was interesting to see the effects, it didn't reveal the direct correlation between how the one affected the other. Past experience shows that it's fields affecting fields and that's REALLY hard to backtrack.

[indigoblade]

I just wonder if anyone has looked into the utilization of chaos theory and probabilitys...maybee that should be considered where the cross overs are concerned.

Do you think this would work/help Art or oyama?

[LordArt]

I just wonder if anyone has looked into the utilization of chaos theory and probabilitys...maybee that should be considered where the cross overs are concerned.

I think the original concept/use of the quantum singularty experiments were seen as chaos theory at the time. However, in more modern Omnimancy techniques, it's been replaced by dimentional fractal techniques which are predictably accurrate. But we've identified a LOT more of the variables to have such equations now from ~10 years ago. We also didn't have the resources 10 years ago as we do now , but what else is new.

The other concerns are still not "solved", so beyond what I've mentioned, it hasn't moved forward. But to answer your question, the concepts have been looked at, yes, and while helpful in the past for lack of something better, something better DID come along.

[indigoblade]

Cool, fractle techniques, thats just super sweet. I myself haven't gone into the whole TK field or any other type of physical effects like that. I prefer shifting reality so that what I need just happens to be there, sometimes I can effect time and sometimes my girlfriend has even noticed the sudden change in reality, but other then that I don't really try to effect those types of things. But my curiosity is deff. peeked on this subject. Especialy the quantum physics of it. The logistics alone of coordinating all of the particles to jump at the same time to the same place in the same relation to one another just astounds me.

I would so love to see what had led to the foundation of what you guys are doing.

[Fire_on_High]

While it may be interesting to revisit them considering how much has been learned elsewhere since then, it is harder to motivate people to do what has already been done.

Speak for yourself...I'm quite interested, regardless.