Why not post teaching material to the public?

[Winter]

ADMIN NOTE: I split this from a different thread because of the question and the answer really should have been it's own thread....

If you were more refering to the group being closed off to new members, that was because we needed enough teachers to handle the load. At this point, the "last wave" of students are now almost at the point of being able to teach, so we expect to be accepting new students in a few weeks. However, that doesn't mean there still isn't a screening process, but even that is being worked on to refine that.

Good to hear more member are being taken in soon, be sure to keep us(people whit intrest of joining) informed.

One thing, im abit confused about the following quote:

However omnimancy goes in a VERY different direction once you get past the foundational stuff. And so the problem is, what makes Omnimancy different, is what makes it powerful and effective, which is a good reason NOT to post it to the general public. Power requires responsiblitiy, and it isn't very responsible if you post potientially dangerous information for anyone with a web browser and too much free time on their hands to find.

I dont want to question your reasons for not posting the teaching on the web, but there are other systems (like golden dawn, kabalah ect) that are public, tho they were "secred" for a long time too, however since all of these systems take serious comitment, the cant really be learned "one two tree done" and thus when your at a point you would be able to do some serious spellcasting, the caster would know the effects of he is doing. Thus i wonder in what way your system would let itself be abused by "anyone with a web browser and too much free time on their hands to find.".

~Winter

[LordArt]

I dont want to question your reasons for not posting the teaching on the web...

Ah, but you are!

but there are other systems (like golden dawn, kabalah ect) that are public, tho they were "secred" for a long time too, however since all of these systems take serious comitment, the cant really be learned "one two tree done" and thus when your at a point you would be able to do some serious spellcasting, the caster would know the effects of he is doing. Thus i wonder in what way your system would let itself be abused by "anyone with a web browser and too much free time on their hands to find.".

There are quite a few answers to that question.

The first being, Why should I post it up? Why should the general public have access? Seriously. (And because they want it isn't a good enough reason).

Simply because other information about other systems have escaped their particular orders/groups because people broke their oaths and told/posted about it doesn't mean I should post our stuff publically. None of the systems you mentioned have posted their better stuff volentarily, and I highly doubt their best stuff has made it to the internet. Generally how that stuff escapes is because someone in one of those orders decides that they don't like the order or the secrecy and publishes information they said they wouldn't. Of course this prevents them from going further in that order (which they didn't care). Anything from the orders themselves are normally watered down versions of what they actually do. Anything that escapes, generally is the oathbreaker's point of view on whatever ritual/spell which may not be how the original spell/ritual was intended.

There is a reason why you don't give a loaded gun to a five year old. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen anyway, but because it does happen doesn't mean that it should be done as a general rule because it's happened before. I fully realize that the same thing is going to happen to Omnimancy, someone will break their oath of silience, and spread their version of what they have learned. But that doesn't mean I have to help that process along. We have prepared as much as you can for that eventuality.

Now, for the more practical reasons of not posting the teaching documents, is that magic can be a dangerous tool. A person who isn't responsible enough to have that kind of power is likely to hurt themselves or others. While you mention Golden Dawn, OTO, etc. as requiring commitment before you become dangerous, that isn't wholy true. You can do stupid and dangerous things early on as with any system. But your correct in the point that to become good, you need lots of practice, and that can be true with virtually anything, including omnimancy. However, while other systems end up putting dogma and mysticism to hide how things actually work(and therefore only people who are committed will put the time in to figuire it out), Omnimancy takes a different approach and tries to go to the heart of what is going on. In so doing, Omnimancy is a simple system to use, and still quite powerful. Because of it's simplicity, it allows constant expansion. Sometimes just the method/idea of how something can be done is enough. Although mostly the power does come from knowledge of the details alone. So it would be a "one two three" (as you put it), to learn certain things and become dangerous(although if you can't do the foundational stuff, the knowledge does you little good since you can't implement it). Between ideas that such a thing is possible, to how to do it safely, to ideas and instruction on how to do more powerful things(Omnimancy is very much based on finding artificial ways around normal power/ability limits). Other systems aren't really built the same way as omnimancy and it's hard to explain. In a ritual based system, you have a few rituals and variations off of that. They are versitle since what happens is based on intent and the smaller things that are changed in the ritual. Psionics is versitle because everything they do is based on raw will/instructions (they call it programming). Omnimancy isn't based on either (but can use those methods), but the more powerful methods are based on "Tech" which can be just learned. Sort of like getting detailed plans to a car. Once you have those plans, anyone can make a car. Eventually you get to things that you can't do without sufficient power, but you are beyond dangerous long before you get to that point.

Another point is, you say that it takes commitment in those other systems before you can do some serious spell casting, so what's so dangerous about posting how-to information about magic? Well, what happens if some wacko decides to put in the commitment and become strong in a particular form of magic? What do you do about this renegade? How much damage will he do before he slaps the wrong person/entity who then takes care of him by splating him? I mean, lots of countries have nuclear weapons, so why don't we just post our best plans of nukes on the internet to share the love? I'm sure no one with ill intent would download them and implement them.

I hope the above explains things better.

Arthur

[Winter]

I dont want to question your reasons for not posting the teaching on the web...

Ah, but you are!

~Hehe yeah your right, sorry

but there are other systems (like golden dawn, kabalah ect) that are public, tho they were "secred" for a long time too, however since all of these systems take serious comitment, the cant really be learned "one two tree done" and thus when your at a point you would be able to do some serious spellcasting, the caster would know the effects of he is doing. Thus i wonder in what way your system would let itself be abused by "anyone with a web browser and too much free time on their hands to find.".

There are quite a few answers to that question.

The first being, Why should I post it up? Why should the general public have access? Seriously. (And because they want it isn't a good enough reason).

~Well that is something personal, one reason
could be that the whole world can learn your
magic.Which might make it a beter place (as people
get more understanding of the universe they live
in)

Simply because other information about other systems have escaped their particular orders/groups because people broke their oaths and told/posted about it doesn't mean I should post our stuff publically. None of the systems you mentioned have posted their better stuff volentarily, and I highly doubt their best stuff has made it to the internet. Generally how that stuff escapes is because someone in one of those orders decides that they don't like the order or the secrecy and publishes information they said they wouldn't. Of course this prevents them from going further in that order (which they didn't care). Anything from the orders themselves are normally watered down versions of what they actually do. Anything that escapes, generally is the oathbreaker's point of view on whatever ritual/spell which may not be how the original spell/ritual was intended.

~I have to say your right that the information of
other magic systems is not really on the web,
however those systems are for the most part
completely writen down in books and for the larger
part those systems (as we can never be sure that
everything is shared) are public in their complete
form.

There is a reason why you don't give a loaded gun to a five year old. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen anyway, but because it does happen doesn't mean that it should be done as a general rule because it's happened before. I fully realize that the same thing is going to happen to Omnimancy, someone will break their oath of silience, and spread their version of what they have learned. But that doesn't mean I have to help that process along. We have prepared as much as you can for that eventuality.

~Well there is a diverents between a gun and
magic, gun can only destroy things, however magic
can do alot of good when a gun can not.

Now let me make myself clear, i dont think people
should go and break their oath of silience, ofcourse
the decision of the maker of a system should be
respected.

Now, for the more practical reasons of not posting the teaching documents, is that magic can be a dangerous tool. A person who isn't responsible enough to have that kind of power is likely to hurt themselves or others. While you mention Golden Dawn, OTO, etc. as requiring commitment before you become dangerous, that isn't wholy true. You can do stupid and dangerous things early on as with any system. But your correct in the point that to become good, you need lots of practice, and that can be true with virtually anything, including omnimancy. However, while other systems end up putting dogma and mysticism to hide how things actually work(and therefore only people who are committed will put the time in to figuire it out), Omnimancy takes a different approach and tries to go to the heart of what is going on. In so doing, Omnimancy is a simple system to use, and still quite powerful. Because of it's simplicity, it allows constant expansion. Sometimes just the method/idea of how something can be done is enough. Although mostly the power does come from knowledge of the details alone. So it would be a "one two three" (as you put it), to learn certain things and become dangerous(although if you can't do the foundational stuff, the knowledge does you little good since you can't implement it). Between ideas that such a thing is possible, to how to do it safely, to ideas and instruction on how to do more powerful things(Omnimancy is very much based on finding artificial ways around normal power/ability limits). Other systems aren't really built the same way as omnimancy and it's hard to explain. In a ritual based system, you have a few rituals and variations off of that. They are versitle since what happens is based on intent and the smaller things that are changed in the ritual. Psionics is versitle because everything they do is based on raw will/instructions (they call it programming). Omnimancy isn't based on either (but can use those methods), but the more powerful methods are based on "Tech" which can be just learned. Sort of like getting detailed plans to a car. Once you have those plans, anyone can make a car. Eventually you get to things that you can't do without sufficient power, but you are beyond dangerous long before you get to that point.

~Yes, that is a very old problem, somethings
which might be very good for the world can be used
to do bad things, however as it can also to alot of
good and im sure many more "good" people will use
it than "bad" people. Also the nature of magic is
diverent than a nuclair weapon, a nuclair weapon is
(as it can only be used for destruction),
something that will only be used by people who
want to control something, magic (in my observation
)attracts people who want to advance on
their spiritual path, to find out the nature of the
universe and their place in it. (im not saying that
wouldnt also use it for practical "earth" things)

Another point is, you say that it takes commitment in those other systems before you can do some serious spell casting, so what's so dangerous about posting how-to information about magic? Well, what happens if some wacko decides to put in the commitment and become strong in a particular form of magic? What do you do about this renegade? How much damage will he do before he slaps the wrong person/entity who then takes care of him by splating him? I mean, lots of countries have nuclear weapons, so why don't we just post our best plans of nukes on the internet to share the love? I'm sure no one with ill intent would download them and implement them.

~Well there is always some wacko, he could use
many other things to do bad, so it wont stop
him anyway.

Ofcourse i understand that you dont want him to do
something bad whit your system, as it would make
feel partly responseble and thus want to keep a
close eye on what people do whit your system.

,But sometimes its beter to take some bad whit alot
of good something can bring.

I hope the above explains things better.

Arthur

I dont want to question your reasons for not posting the teaching on the web...

Oops i did it again

I hope i havent offended you.

Now as you see im do not completely agree whit, i know ofcourse that im not someone who can really juge about these things. You know beter what dangers you system can hold and i will respec your decision.

Your system sure does sound good and when you open your group for more (online) members, im sure to send in my application

~Winter

[LordArt]

Well, as not to have mondo-mega-quoting(tm), I'll just quote your last response so quoting doesn't get silly. If people want to know what it's refering to, they can scroll up.

Well that is something personal, one reason could be that the whole world can learn your magic.Which might make it a beter place (as people
get more understanding of the universe they live in)

Well, why don't you want to share your reason with the world? Releasing my magical secrets to the world in your requested manner is NOT going to make the world a better place. If that's what I wanted to do, I would just write a book like everyone else and make some money on it. That is not what I think of my work, and it would be irresponsible for me to release it in such a fashion. The amount of people that had the character to be ready for the knowledge versus the amount that aren't ready is huge (The ones not ready being far larger). Omnimancy is spreading at it's own pace in a more responsible way. I'm not in a rush to inform the world per se. Based on calculations, Omnimancy doubles in size every 2 years. Which means by that logic, there should be 3+ million omnimancers in 40 years.

Spreading Omnimancy to the world is a long term goal, but there are many ways of doing that, and simply posting the information on a website is not a responsible one. So you'll have to come up with a better reason why I should post the teaching material.

I have to say your right that the information of other magic systems is not really on the web, however those systems are for the most part completely writen down in books and for the larger part those systems (as we can never be sure that everything is shared) are public in their complete form.

Umm, your stating contradictory statements there. You are saying the published works are their completed form, but you also admit that you can't know that they are in their completed form. So which is it? From my experience with books, is that they are either quite delute(beginner stuff, or just simplistic rituals/spells etc), quite misguided (because of personal views on the subject matter and the author missed the point, which is probably why they are publishing and no longer part of the order they came from), or they are "traps"(For example, Crowley was notorious for putting "traps" in his book. The idea being that unless you already knew how things worked, you would take him at face value and go off in the wrong direction.) I wouldn't put so much faith in those books that you are saying are so complete.

~Well there is a diverents between a gun and magic, gun can only destroy things, however magic can do alot of good when a gun can not.

Now let me make myself clear, i dont think people should go and break their oath of silience, of course the decision of the maker of a system should be respected.

You have a narrow view of what a gun can do. A gun can help you hunt for food(not that we really need that in this society), protect yourself, your loved ones, and your property from others that would take it away from you.

Magic can do FAR more damage than a gun can do. Yes, it can heal as well as harm. Much like a doctor/surgen. But we don't let random people who learned their practice off the web, practice on people. I mean, would you want a doctor cutting you up that learned their stuff off a website and wasn't ready to practice on you? We have institutions and tests to see if a person is ready to be a doctor and use that knowledge on people. Why is it hard to see that the secret societies as far as magic goes is basically doing the same thing?

~Yes, that is a very old problem, somethings which might be very good for the world can be used to do bad things, however as it can also to alot of good and im sure many more "good" people will use it than "bad" people. Also the nature of magic is diverent than a nuclair weapon, a nuclair weapon is (as it can only be used for destruction), something that will only be used by people who want to control something, magic (in my observation )attracts people who want to advance on their spiritual path, to find out the nature of the universe and their place in it. (im not saying that wouldnt also use it for practical "earth" things)

For your own reference, the same technology that allows for a nuclear weapon, allows for nuclear power, which for what it is, is rather cheap, effectient and safe. So even nuclear weapons if applied correctly can be helpful.

No offense, but you seem to have a nieve view of the world. While I will admit some would benifit from the postings, the utter amount of problems it would cause far outways the few it would enlighten. While the people you might have come across want spirituality, in my experience, religeon attracts those that want spiritual fufilment, while magic attracts those that want power and control. Even if that power and control is just over their own lives. In the world I see, I have muggers and rapists. I have people crashing planes into where I use to work (ie. World trade center). I have people overseas that would just assume kill me because I'm an american. We have wars constantly being faught somewhere in the world. This is the world that you want me to give power to? You can't ignore them in your worldview just because they aren't convient.

You say a lot of "good" people will use it more than "bad" people. First question is, how do you know? Second is, when have you EVER seen 1 good person balances out 1 bad person? In my experience, those that get into magic get into for different reasons. A "good" person will get into it to heal. A more agressive person will get good at combat with it. Some of those agressive people are "bad". Now, if you have 20 "good" mages that only have real experience with healing(because that is what interests them), and you add 1 "bad" person into the mix. You know what you get? 20 splated "good" mages, because they aren't as able to defend themselves because they didn't bother to learn much in that direction of combat. So do you wish to be one of those 20 because you wished to give that one "bad" person power?

It's a very lofty view that all people who aquire power will only use it for enlightened goals, but I hate to tell you, it doesn't work that way. We do not live in a utopian society nor are the inhabitants like those in a utopian society. Think of the leaders of the world. Anyone from our President to Sadam Husain. They understand power and what it means. They would not have gotten to where they were if they didn't. If you want spirituality, find a religeon, if you want power, get into magic. Yes, you learn more of how the universe works, but as I've said before, power needs responsibility. Part of responsibility means making hard choices and understanding concequences of your actions. Oh, you can do things without being responsible, but eventually you will cross the line with someone/something, and they will stop your progress or worse.

~Well there is always some wacko, he could use many other things to do bad, so it wont stop him anyway.

Ofcourse i understand that you dont want him to do something bad whit your system, as it would make feel partly responseble and thus want to keep a close eye on what people do whit your system.

,But sometimes its beter to take some bad whit alot of good something can bring.

You really don't understand do you? It's not about someone using my system to do "bad" simply because it's my system. Of course there are wackos, and fortunately they are in the minority. It looks like I'm going to have to spell it out for you. Here is an example and likely senerio.

Who is the general trafficer to my site? You aren't talking about the spiritual seekers (although they are there), but people who have seen too many movies or too many episodes of charmed. They want to do what they have seen on movies and TV shows. So they start to try out a few things. And lo and behold, it works to a point. But they aren't trying to heal people, they are blasting each other to see if the other person feels it. Not understanding what they are doing, they can seriously hurt the other person without even trying BECAUSE they don't know what they are doing and what the proper way or limitations that should imposed. Now these people feel impowered because it seems no one is looking. The law of man certainly doesn't deal with using magic against your fellow man. Knowing this, they start to use their abilities to control those around them because they can't do anything about it. Anything from punishing those that cut them off in traffic, to getting revenge on their bosses/co-workers. Not because they are inherently bad people, but the power is seductive, and no one is looking, so they figuire, why not? It's human nature. Have you ever heard the phrase power corrupts? How much damage is this individual going to cause before another mage or entity notices and exacts punishment for whatever they original person did to them? So now we have the original person hurt, and all the people that person hurt along the way. I would say for every person coming here for spiritual enlightnment, there are about 100 that are like the above in one sense or another.

So can you tell me how all that damage is worth a few getting more enlightened, when it's not nessacary to do it that way? I've been running this group and been in the local magical community for many years. I've only been online with this kind of thing for a few years, and it's even worse online. I've seen all kinds of people. I've seen who gets attracted to what and what the general ratios tend to be. Humanity is not an enlightened as you think they are.

Oops i did it again

I hope i havent offended you.

Now as you see im do not completely agree whit, i know ofcourse that im not someone who can really juge about these things. You know beter what dangers you system can hold and i will respec your decision.

I'm not offended. I like debates.

This was an issue that has been brought up before, so I wanted it in it's own thread to be explained. On the surface, it seems like a good idea to have this sort of information published to the world. But your looking from a different perspective. Your looking from the point of view of the seeker of knowledge. I'm looking for the perspective of one that has been asked by many to give it out. There is a BIG difference between learning and teaching. Being a teacher, it's part of my responsiblity to understand WHAT responsibility means, and if a person is ready for the knowledge they desire. And simply based on that criteria, the masses are simply NOT ready. I'm not sure you understand my reasons, and perhaps you won't til your in my position, but that is the nature of things sometimes.

Arthur

[Winter]

Hallo,

First let me thank you for your greath response.

On the surface, it seems like a good idea to have this sort of information published to the world. But your looking from a different perspective. Your looking from the point of view of the seeker of knowledge.

Well, what can i say, your right. I may not have get it the first time, but i cant get around that there is much wisdom in your post. I was indeed viewing it entirely from my point, not only that, i secredly hoped to blow you away whit my perfect reasoning, lol so much for that.

Another thing is, i really didnt get it, but im glade i went into a discusion whit you, i might have come out of it as a "loser", but now im also a "winner" as i learned something from your posts.

Seems my quest for knowledge is going to be a hard one.( and now you have to say; Noone ever said it was going to be easy. )

~Winter

[LordArt]

Noone ever said it was going to be easy.

(Well, you asked for it. )

Seriously though, you've already taken a big step in being willing to learn and think. You would be surprised how much of a big step that is. Many people are just interested in winning reguardless if they are correct or not. They aren't interested in knowing something new, they are interested in winning(from their point of view). It's important to them to be correct(tm), rather than being open minded enough to let in new ideas and accept the possibility that they might be wrong or misunderstand something. The ability to actually think rather than take things at face value.

Many of my compatriots and I have come across your arguement before by others, and our explanations have fallen on deaf ears. We also figuired that it would end up that way with you. Thank you for proving us wrong.

[Contrary]

Think about this. Our public consumption material is the essential basics of our system. If you can take just that information, apply yourself to expanding upon those concepts and exploring the possabilities, there's no reason you can't become competant and powerful without any further help from the Omnimancers. It just takes hard work and dedication to pushing the envelope of your personal knowledge, which is how we came to be where we are today. Sometimes, the best ideas are the clearest and the simplest, inspiring and channeling the mind's creativity to create new solutions instead of restricting oneself to well-travelled intellectual territory. Feel free to use what we've given you. It's not like we're throwing scraps of power at you like an advertisement campaign. It's just not instant power, it's the ideas that can unlock a world of new possabilities, if you have the courage and tenacity to persue.

[Naryx]

They don't post the information because they don't want to be overwhelmed with ignorant bastards that don't take the information seriously at all.

Anyone with any 'official' experience with magic will tell you that you learn the following information real fast.

The general public is a bunch of uninformed bastards that don't care and reject anything that is outside their tiny comfort zones. The idea that the public can be 'enlightened' is the aspiration of idiots and dreamers. The general public will be ignorant shitheads for the most part. Thats the way it is. If you can't deal with it, don't live a public life.