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Postby Naryx » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:08 pm

Why should I care about one death in millions of people? Why should I care about the cessation of existance of one manifestation amongst quintillions? Honestly, why should any one person or thing mean anything to me?
The forges of manifestation are never quiescent. They are simply so far away from normal reality that you can't hear them.
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Postby KayVee » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:10 pm

Why should we care about your posts not actually making sense any more? :lol:

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Postby Naryx » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:22 pm

Keep baiting me. You will force disciplinary action upon yourself.
The forges of manifestation are never quiescent. They are simply so far away from normal reality that you can't hear them.
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Postby KayVee » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:24 pm

That post was unnecessary. 8)

ANyrate, a 2000 word essay on contemporary Japan calls to me. Sorry.

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Postby StormSeeker » Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:14 pm

There is question over whether Qabbalah is infact Jewish or Egyptian in origin. Yes, you heard me right - Egyptian. Before we dismiss a tradition, it can be a good idea to research it's history and continue to pay attention to what historians and archeologists uncover. Not everything is known about system origins, or their meanings. If anyone needs another example of that, look at the Druidic systems in force today by groups like the Order of Ovates, Bards and Druids and such. They 'claim' they're reinstating the old ways, when infact history has proven the ancient Druids to be anything other than what the OOBD proclaim them to have been.

Perhaps the origins don't matter so much to you, Naryx, since you're adverse to the Judeo-Christian ways (and I don't blame you, fundies have spoiled their religious beliefs for a lot of them); but origins are important. They dictate what the original beliefs and meanings are behind a tradition, and shouldn't be dismissed so quickly IMHO.

Qabbalah, like many other traditional systems out there, including the Druidic ways if we go by what historians tell us, has been distorted in many ways since it was first practiced. What is likely practiced as Qabbalah nowadays, is unlikely to be the same practiced thousands of years ago. There mere fact that there is considerable ambiguity over the origins of the system, once completely believed to be from elsewhere, should relate that.

So you don't like Judeo-Christian morals, or standpoints or religion. So you apparently don't like the Jews. Fair enough. But that judgement you've made upon a system, is a misinformed one. As we usually make our judgements, you've made it against those who practice modern day Qabbalah that only you've read about or encountered - when infact those individuals practice their way or they way they were taught. Which is not necessarily the original tradition, NOR necessarily the tradition practiced by others who use the Qabbalah as well. Whom you've encountered may not represent the majority, nor indeed how the practice was meant to be used.

Infact, there are many non Judeo-Christians whom I know, who use the Qabbalah interpretations and symbology in the interpretation of the Tarot. Why? Because it makes sense to them. No other reason. If a Tibetan monk had written the books they use for aiding their interpretations, they'd still use them. The source doesn't matter so much in this case, as what aids and what brings results.

Secondly, you said, "This is a forum ment for discussion. Not flaming each other. " Also you then went onto say to KayVee: "Although be cause I've allready judged you and found you to be a WANTING LITTLE SHIT".

I agree with you - these forums ARE for discussion. And calling KayVee or anyone that, isn't discussion - it's flaming. And there isn't any need for it.

And when people bait you, there is not a necessity to respond. People won't think any less of you - infact a few people might think more of you for not doing so.
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Postby Naryx » Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:44 pm

I'm not going to go back on my judgement about KayVee. I have no reason to do so, Stormseeker. KayVee has made it explicitly clear that he dislikes me.

As to my judgement about the Qabballah, that I will allow to be questioned, since it is based on information that is possibly antiquated. I would need exclusive proof that it is in fact from Egypt before I write it out of the jewish belief systems, though. If you can provide me some kind of concrete proof of it, I'll believe it. Though the jews did stay in egypt for a while, so its still possibly jewish either way.
The forges of manifestation are never quiescent. They are simply so far away from normal reality that you can't hear them.
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Postby StormSeeker » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:48 am

If you, like the majority of historians concerned with Qabbalah, are waiting for concrete proof either way, you're in for a long wait :) As I said, there's "ambiguity" concerning the origins of the system.

If I remember right - and don't quote me on it, I'd do the research yourself rather than trust my memory *nods* - the ambiguity comes partially from the fact that many of the Jews relocated to Egypt and historians aren't too sure how much of Qabbalah is Jewish, and how much of it was influence by the Egyptian magic systems of the time in Alexandria.

Basically, it's a "chicken or the egg" type scenario - was Qabbalah there first in Egypt, or did the Jews bring it with them or create it from inspiration based upon Egyptian magic?

There's also talk of Qabbalah springing from Jewish gnosticism, which if it's true, then Gnosticism originated in Egypt; and though that doesn't necessarily mean the Jews didn't invent it, it would likely have been highly influenced by current Egyptian traditions and beliefs at the time.

It's a neat topic, I'd recommend looking into it on a rainy day if you're interested and get the time. But until the historians or archeologists figure it out, where it comes from, how many versions of it, which was the first version, whether the versions now are anything like the originals, and where the moral beliefs within the current versions come from - is pretty much open for debate.

As they say, History is rarely a certainty.

And I never asked you to go back on your judgement of KV, I was pointing out that you had said this was a discussion forum, not for flaming (which I agree with), and that by calling KV that, it came across as a flame to me. Basically, I was agreeing with your first opinion/'piece of advice' and hoping not to see any more "flames" in the thread again.

Let's be candid: whomever's baiting whom, isn't important to me, and I couldn't give a rat's ass about it, or who's enjoying it or not enjoying it. I just walked in here, read the thread, and sat and wondered, "One interprets what's said; one baits the other; the other reacts; the other reacts to that reaction; the other reacts to that reaction of the reaction...and so on.." and wondered: Why?

I don't know about anyone else here, but I always try to adhere to the "Act. Don't react." philosophy myself. And mainly because I realize we have a 'choice' to whether we react to someone, and how we react. And that reacting, rather than detaching myself and acting, might not be the best way to handle the situation.

Not that I do this, 100% of the time...but I try to remember to do it, when I can. Cuts down the stress in my life, and helps me gain a less immersed perspective in my personal debates, discussions, and so forth. It also means I'm less liable to "go on the defensive" when someone challenges my views or beliefs in a discussion - which is often the number one killer for a discussion - it turns the discussion or debate into a challenge to defend your side against the other person's.

When people start defending their sides in a debate, it becomes difficult to remember why the debate was begun in the first place - and usually that reason was a desire to expand one's own mind and views. In other words: learn. And learning is hard to do, if one is defending because rarely does one listen and defend at the same time. And usually, defensive is primary whilst listening becomes a secondary.

Your point of "Keep baiting me. You will force disciplinary action upon yourself" to KayVee, isn't technically true from my pov. Should you carry out disciplinary action upon KayVee, it is your.choice to react that way. It is not KayVee's doing.

Anymore than it's your responses to KayVee, causing KayVee to bait you like that. That's his choice. And his choice to react to you in that manner.

We choose our actions and reactions in life. And though at first or second glance, it may appear that others force our hands - that is a reaction to stimulus. And reactions can be chosen not to be carried out.

Okay, I'm rambling now. Enough of that. There was a point in there somewhere..
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Postby Naryx » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:15 am

When I mentioned disciplinary action what I meant was the fact that by continuing to break the rules and bait me, he is breaking the rules of the forum. Thus, eventually, an admin would realize that he was breaking the rules and discipline him. Which is what an admin is supposed to do in that sort of situation.

Also, whether the administration of this board likes me or not, they have an obligation to fulfill the rules of the board. Just as a judge and jury has an obligation to be unbiased in a trial case.
The forges of manifestation are never quiescent. They are simply so far away from normal reality that you can't hear them.
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Postby StormSeeker » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:30 am

Ah. I wasn't aware that is a rule in this forum *looks around for the rules post, doesn't see one*

Nevertheless, it makes sense than someone should not bait another, doesn't lead anywhere that fruitful, to me. Also makes sense that one should not call another names or insult them too *nod*

IMO, you declining to rise to his baiting, would teach him more, than disciplinary action from a forum authority. And vice versa as well. Because then you would both have to consider your actions and reflect upon them and why you chose them, and thus, the process of understanding and learning deepens. As opposed to just getting a rap on the knuckles, and being told "You shouldn't do this, it's against the rules."

If you get what I mean.

And find me a person who's completely unbiased in this world...I'll give you a cookie, because I haven't found one yet that isn't biased either by their previous experiences in life, personal symbolism/associations, upbringing and social environment, (past life influences, if you believe in that), and everything else which has contributed to the wealth of Emotional and Mental Self which make up their being.

Bias or lack thereof, can be measured in degrees, as far as I'm concerned - rather than just "is biased/is not biased". Shades of grey, over black and white.

That goes for judges and juries as well. They are supposed to be unbiased, yes. But 'being', and 'believing that they are', are not necessarily the same things. It is terribly difficult to be unbiased in this life in reality, I think, given what influences we have in our lives and have had, which contribute to who we are and how we see the world.

Thus, though I concede that the obligation to be unbiased is there; I don't believe that in every instance, it is necessarily upheld.
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Postby LordArt » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:40 pm

Alright, while this all has been very amusing, I finally have enough free time to answer. My time and priorities with it are my own.

First off Naryx, I HAVE no obligation to answer anyone, let alone someone who decides to ask it in an uncivil way. I suppose the real question is then "why I shouldn't treat you and YOUR school of thought with anything but contempt and disgust" to use your words on you. What have you shown that is worthy of my respect to bother wasting my time trying to convince you of anything? Who are you that I should even bother? And even if I do, so what? You say you have 12 years of experience, but in many cases that I've heard that, you find out with a little digging, that it normally means that the person picked up a book on the occult or paganism(whatever flavor), when they were 6-10 years old, and want respect based on the amount of years that they've known about magic, where the reality is, they were mostly ignorant children with no idea what they were doing, and the result is they only really have about 2-3 years of experience as an adult and thinking like an adult. However they still are acting like children thinking that the majority of the years they claim to have expereince matters. You remind me of a faustian that came in here a year ago, with an ego larger than life and shoveling their view of the world on everyone else and expressing distain for anyone that didn't agree. Unfortunately for you, you come off like the ignorant masses that you claim to hate so much, if nothing else with your impatience for my answer.

So convince me why I should care about your opinion of myself or my school of thought.

However you bring a few questions that others have not asked before, so I will answer simply for reference of those that may ask it again.

I also want to know what experience or training gives you any right to teach anyone anything? Do you have some kind of certificate or degree?


I give myself the right. That's all I need. I founded the tradition over a decade ago and have expanded it ever since. I started all of this as an adult. Founding a tradition is easy, convincing quality students(non-fluffs and intelligent people) that it's worth learning is the hard part. Since I have done both and Omnimancy as a tradition is ever expanding, I have done what few have successfully done. I've given public and private lectures for many years now at different events. As far as experience/training in teaching, well that was from the school of hard-knocks, and having experience as a project manager on team projects at work. I teach by story and example as well as matching frames of reference and making the student think via the socretes approach when appropriate.

As far as a certificate or degree, there are no certificates or degrees for this unless you come from the good ol' days of Berkley where you could still get a degree in Thaumaturgy. Anyone that DOES have degrees or certificates was either scammed, or was given to them by people who didn't have degrees or certificates either unless they made them up. You should know that already. (I'm refering to degrees from acredited schools, not 1st degree, 2nd degree, etc as in magic orders since you seem to be refering to the former).

As far as the public document goes, I've stated in many posts that it is rather thin and quite incomplete, but it is as much as we wish to reveal to the general public. The challenges to that stance aren't going to change it. If people can't get enough information from that document, it is up to them to ask further, which is why the forums are here. Many things from that document has been expanded and clarified in the forums that can be in a public setting and some things have been discussed in private.

As far as your opinions go, your going to make up your own mind anyway. What qualifies to you as worthy of respect, only you know and I truely don't care if you have respect for me or my school of thought. If you wish to ask civil questions along the line to explore that, that's up to you. If you even decide to persue questioning and it's not civil, I will just ignore them. If you continue to verbally harrass and bait other members of this board, I'll ban you and your Class B address (I've noticed your on a dynamic IP on rose.net). There is no excuse for your behavior, and saying that's just who you are and what you believe is not an excuse. You can express yourself and your ideas without being rude and you choose not to. That is your choice of course, but I've just stated it's reprocussions, which in the end is all that matters.

As far as judges being impartial, they are supposed to be, but rarely are. They are impartial because they have rules to follow, but even then they are not impartial. They do the best they can with their own biases because they have to interpret the law. As far as the administrators on this board "whether the administration of this board likes me or not, they have an obligation to fulfill the rules of the board." Well, considering there are no rules of the board other than the administrator's whim and have never stated otherwise, you are showing your ignorance that he is breaking some rule. The rules here are don't piss off the administrators. And honestly, that's true in an American courtroom too. If you piss off the judge he can throw you in jail for contempt of court with no more reason than that. No different here. KayVee made a statement, and your response was rude, so as far as I'm concerned what you get from him is your own doing.

So in summary, your contempt for me or not is not my concern. You have yet to show yourself worthy of my concern and if anything has shown the opposite. Where this goes from here is up to you.
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Postby Naryx » Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:17 pm

As I expected, you responded out of Ego, LordArt. I shouldn't have even bothered to question you. Your energy makes it obvious.

As for why you shouldn't treat me with contempt and disgust, you don't know anything about me. Number two, you don't know what my school of thought is. So you don't have a leg to stand on as far as that goes.

How the fact that I remind you of a faustian is relevant to the discussion is beyond me.

The fact that you believe you can give yourself the right to teach is another indication of your ego concerns.

I don't care if your a vatican consultant on demonology and thaumaturgy. Speaking here and there doesn't make shit with me.

So you are academically untrained then? Another reason not to take you seriously.

Your public documents are thin and incomplete. Typical.

Threatening me with being banned isn't going to do anything but alienate me from you. What makes you think being banned will change anything? I mean seriously. This is reality. There are hundreds if not more forums beyond this one. Banning me from one forum isn't going to acomplish anything.

I don't publically discuss my beliefs because people just point and laugh. Further, some people harass and deride me about my beliefs. Therefore unless I see that an individual is worthy of my respect, my beliefs are not a topic that is open for discussion. Therefore I don't really see how I can earn your respect, since you responded to all this in precisely the wrong way.

You knew it was a bait and switch trap and you went in anyway. You're an idiot.
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Postby LordArt » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:04 pm

Ahh, Naryx, such the fool.

Of course I knew the whole point was a bait, I mean, DUH. But you miss the point, which is your ignoring the obvious.

First, I do know something about you and your thoughts, it's plastered all over these forums for the last few days, you couldn't help yourself. Even if they aren't you true thoughts, they show that you have mind enough to come up with them, and at the very least lie about things if they aren't, which shows a certain amount of character either way. In either case, you've shown alot about yourself.

How the fact that I remind you of a faustian is relevant to the discussion is beyond me.


It was stated above why. Read it again.

The fact that you believe you can give yourself the right to teach is another indication of your ego concerns.

Which is your opinion of course. And your qualifications to say otherwise ARE? Nothing. :lol: There is a big difference between having ego, and being egotistical. Ego is part of the pysche. We all have wants and desires. It was part of your "ego concerns" by your definition to come here in the first place. :)

I don't care if your a vatican consultant on demonology and thaumaturgy. Speaking here and there doesn't make shit with me.

So you are academically untrained then? Another reason not to take you seriously.

The above examples showed why I'm qualified. While you can judge me your are not my judge. As far as being academically trained, you've obviously not been in the real world then, which again confirms my opinion about you. Academically trained doesn't mean that much out there. All too often academically trained simply means worthless piece of paper. In my field, the acadmically trained are the WORST people in the field. They are certified to pass a test, but in real world situations they are helpless. Experience ALWAYS wins over academia. Some of the most successful people in this world are not academically trained. This shows your ignorance again. Academia HELPS to gain expereince but is no substitute.

I also noticed you have nothing to say about me forming a tradition and being successful at it. Convient that, isn't it? :lol:

I answered the question, because I felt it was a good question to answer, and stated such at the time.

Your public documents are thin and incomplete. Typical.

Yeah, and you knew this coming in, and stated such in your first message, so how is this relavent as a rebuttal?

Threatening me with being banned isn't going to do anything but alienate me from you. What makes you think being banned will change anything? I mean seriously. This is reality. There are hundreds if not more forums beyond this one. Banning me from one forum isn't going to acomplish anything.


It wasn't a threat. Come now. It was simply showing the reprocussions of your actions. No more, no less. And there are certainly are hundreds of more forums out there. All it would do is not having you be rude to people here, which is all I care about in such a matter, and what I see my responsibility as Admin.

I don't publically discuss my beliefs because people just point and laugh. Further, some people harass and deride me about my beliefs. Therefore unless I see that an individual is worthy of my respect, my beliefs are not a topic that is open for discussion. Therefore I don't really see how I can earn your respect, since you responded to all this in precisely the wrong way.

Ah, but you have. And honestly, your discussions here have made people point and laugh at you anyways, so you seem to bring that to yourself. As I said above, even if what you've posted is false to your beliefs, people are laughing anyways. I think you've noticed that. As for me going about it the "wrong" way, again, I think you miss the point. I went about what amused me to do. There was never any value in you other than amusement since your first post, haven't you gotten that by now? I mean, come on, look who is truely the idiot at this point here not realising that. :lol:

You became unworthy of my respect from the moment you couldn't be civil which was your first post. Anything past that is simply playing. Your too nieve.
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Postby LordArt » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:18 pm

Honestly, if for some reason this continues, I'm not going to reply. The reality is, I just have better things to do. I'm a busy man, and I work in the real world which has a lot of requirements of my time. Naryx have fun. I know I have. :)
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Postby MageMindy » Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:43 pm

*points and laughs at Naryx*

*shurgs* someone had to do it :lol:
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Postby Naryx » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:40 pm

The masquerade has ended. Now that I have finished testing your founder, I can settle down and be real about things. I expect this whole idea that I'm a horrible person and in general deserve to be outcasted will take some time to vanish, but I also expect it will eventually end.
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