Login | Register

Orlog

A place where any form of magic and stories/experiences related may be discussed. This is also appropriate to discuss general Omnimancy principles, of course.

Moderators: Contrary, Ogre, LordArt

  • Author
    Message

Orlog

Postby miri » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:11 pm

I'm curious whether the (Asatru/Christopagan) concept of Orlog is relevant to Omnimancy. Orlog is very similar to the concept of Destiny or God, in many ways, but it is neutral, potentially mutable, and tied into the same world-bending style of (the runes) Berkana and Tyr. I ask because I recall that Omni started with Runic designs and much of my Runic work has become involved in interactions with Orlog, over the last year. I would particularly expect Dim tech to involve Orlog (or a similar corollary) when tending toward causing real-world effects and establishing meaningful changes in astral. Orlog gives something bones in a way not too unlike Soul material (Hard Magic), but in a broader, less personal, way.

Also, it's damned dead on this forum. Talk people, remedy the unyielding silence, please.
User avatar
miri
Visitor
Visitor
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:41 pm
Location: Maine

Re: Orlog

Postby LordArt » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:14 pm

miri wrote:I'm curious whether the (Asatru/Christopagan) concept of Orlog is relevant to Omnimancy.


Not really, no.
Orlog is very similar to the concept of Destiny or God


These are two very distinctly different things within omnimancy. A god is a powerful entity. Destiny is simply something powerful's agenda. Destiny is alterable if you have enough power and influence for the part that is being altered (and how insistent the enforcer of that agenda wants to get their way on the part in question).

I ask because I recall that Omni started with Runic designs


Don't misinterpret that to mean that the dogma that comes with such a thing is present here. "Runic designs" simply means we started with using written symbols. I started with Norse Runes when I first started magic, but none of the omnimancy symbols have anything to do with them. Norse runes was just the first type of magic I investigated. Runes/glyphs/sygils within Omni represent spell effects, no more, no less. They are also tied to the individual, not the system per se. There are "stock" omni symbols, but even if such a thing is used, it is usually translated into the student's own symbol set, or realistically these days, not even made into a rune since mostly the active spell itself is copied rather than something on paper or on a screen. The omni symbol is shown for historical reasons more than anything else.

I would particularly expect Dim tech to involve Orlog (or a similar corollary) when tending toward causing real-world effects and establishing meaningful changes in astral.


You would be wrong. Dim tech is a method, no more, no less. The means in which that method can be applied CAN be used via Orlog methods or many other methods to affect the physical. Dim tech is a means of controlling dimensional or more accurately realm fabric which in turn produces different magical effects which in turn does (hopefully) whatever you are trying to accomplish. Dim tech being like orlog would be like saying metallurgy is christian because you made a cross out of metal one time.

Orlog gives something bones in a way not too unlike Soul material (Hard Magic), but in a broader, less personal, way.


You are lumping terms together without understanding the meaning of the terms. Dim tech is simply a class of methods to use higher dimensional directions to manipulate realm fabric in ways to produce different magical effects and other permutations of that. Soul material isn't always hard magic. Souls are made up of lots of stuff, the more "indestructible" parts are made of hard magic yes, but there is a LOT of things that are hard magic that has nothing to do with soul material. There is a LOT of things in soul that is quite breakable by normal means or else people shooting psi-balls couldn't do the damage they do sometimes. They are damaging the softer areas to be sure, but that's enough to do real damage if it hits the wrong spot.

Also, it's damned dead on this forum. Talk people, remedy the unyielding silence, please.


The forum is dead because anyone doing omni is talking at their respective groups, so there isn't much of a need to talk here unless it's a cross group issue. And even then, there are multiple mailing lists to handle such things.
User avatar
LordArt
Head Omnimancer
Head Omnimancer
 
Posts: 2016
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 11:21 pm
Location: Earth Realm, This side of the Multiverse

Re: Orlog

Postby miri » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:12 pm

These are two very distinctly different things within omnimancy. A god is a powerful entity. Destiny is simply something powerful's agenda. Destiny is alterable if you have enough power and influence for the part that is being altered (and how insistent the enforcer of that agenda wants to get their way on the part in question).


I'm not attempting to talk about Orlog not from a theological perspective, but from a magical one. That is, I mean it as a representation of destiny in a form removed from the will of an entity. It's more like the inherent purpose/potential of a being or object. I capitalized "God" with the intention to illustrate differentiation between a being of power (a god) and a theoretical progenitor of existence. So, as I am using the term, Orlog makes hydrogen atoms bind in pairs, but doesn't really care what you do with your life. Invoking Orlog to slightly tweak the rules of astral/physical planes, I insist, is potentially useful. Anything that has been in some way bound up with Orlog has a great deal of stability within reality. Using Orlog to emphasize one aspect of Nature over another can make unstable reactions stable, vulnerable aspects tougher, etc.

Don't misinterpret that to mean that the dogma that comes with such a thing is present here. "Runic designs" simply means we started with using written symbols. I started with Norse Runes when I first started magic, but none of the omnimancy symbols have anything to do with them. Norse runes was just the first type of magic I investigated. Runes/glyphs/sygils within Omni represent spell effects, no more, no less. They are also tied to the individual, not the system per se. There are "stock" omni symbols, but even if such a thing is used, it is usually translated into the student's own symbol set, or realistically these days, not even made into a rune since mostly the active spell itself is copied rather than something on paper or on a screen. The omni symbol is shown for historical reasons more than anything else.


Duly noted

You would be wrong. Dim tech is a method, no more, no less. The means in which that method can be applied CAN be used via Orlog methods or many other methods to affect the physical. Dim tech is a means of controlling dimensional or more accurately realm fabric which in turn produces different magical effects which in turn does (hopefully) whatever you are trying to accomplish. Dim tech being like orlog would be like saying metallurgy is christian because you made a cross out of metal one time.


My specific thinking was that in setting up dimensional warps that are intended to bully physical reality (which is generally much more objectively stable than non-physical reality), the weight/stability that accessing/invoking Orlog has can be useful. Since physical dimensions are generally hard to affect directly, affecting nonphysical dimensions, or extra-physical as the case may be, is more typical. Manipulating this non-traditional space has less direct impact on physical space and events than is desired, at least by me. So emphasizing their existence/weight is desirable. There are any number of ways to do this, of course. Orlog just occurs to me as I, unlike you, Art, am still very interested in the Elder Futhark.

You are lumping terms together without understanding the meaning of the terms. Dim tech is simply a class of methods to use higher dimensional directions to manipulate realm fabric in ways to produce different magical effects and other permutations of that. Soul material isn't always hard magic. Souls are made up of lots of stuff, the more "indestructible" parts are made of hard magic yes, but there is a LOT of things that are hard magic that has nothing to do with soul material. There is a LOT of things in soul that is quite breakable by normal means or else people shooting psi-balls couldn't do the damage they do sometimes. They are damaging the softer areas to be sure, but that's enough to do real damage if it hits the wrong spot.


Different definitions and philosophies are a large part of the disagreement here. I won't argue with you, it's Omni's terminology, not my own.

The forum is dead because anyone doing omni is talking at their respective groups, so there isn't much of a need to talk here unless it's a cross group issue. And even then, there are multiple mailing lists to handle such things.


Still, not everyone on the forum is a part of Omni, I miss the days when every month or two a good discussion would happen here, always made for good reading. Now that the old lurkers are mostly gone or a part of Omnicyber, I'm simply trying to fill the void created. Thanks for your response.
User avatar
miri
Visitor
Visitor
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:41 pm
Location: Maine

Re: Orlog

Postby LordArt » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:19 pm

I'm not attempting to talk about Orlog not from a theological perspective, but from a magical one.


But you are.

That is, I mean it as a representation of destiny in a form removed from the will of an entity.


Then call it physics rather than trying to get fancy. ;)

It's more like the inherent purpose/potential of a being or object. I capitalized "God" with the intention to illustrate differentiation between a being of power (a god) and a theoretical progenitor of existence.


And how exactly is talking about a "theoretical progenitor of existence" and calling it "God" not theological?

So, as I am using the term, Orlog makes hydrogen atoms bind in pairs, but doesn't really care what you do with your life.


Again, why not call it physics? They do know why hydrogen atoms bind in pairs you know. ;)

Invoking Orlog to slightly tweak the rules of astral/physical planes, I insist, is potentially useful.


Tweaking the rules or more accurately, creatively using the rules against the normal status quo is useful yes. I'm not sure how you are defining Orlog. To me, your definition seems to be all over the place which is why I'm not understanding you. Magic is a means of controlling physics that current science doesn't recognize or understand yet. There are MANY ways to accomplish the same thing with varying results or efficiencies. Raw energy is one way. Dimensional Tech is another. One may get better results than the other. Understanding how the astral works as a realm and the physical works as a realm, and how they interact, and the means they can be forced to interact "unnaturally" is useful. But it's just physics. (I mean unnaturally in this case by disrupting the normal cyclic motion of things to tweak when something happens) I mean if I do X and get Y as a result, isn't that just physics? X could be a spell effect, which in turn creates different manifestations in the astral realm which in turn affects the physical realm in the desired (hopefully) way to produce a measurable result. This of how an ultrasound can "see" a baby in a mother's womb. So one is using indirect affects to produce direct effects.

Anything that has been in some way bound up with Orlog has a great deal of stability within reality. Using Orlog to emphasize one aspect of Nature over another can make unstable reactions stable, vulnerable aspects tougher, etc.


Ok, you lost me here. I have lots of techniques that do what you mention, but I don't call it Orlog. If we replace the word Orlog with the word physics in the above statement, then yes, I agree with you. But isn't that what everyone has been doing all along if that is the case (be them using such names or not)?

My specific thinking was that in setting up dimensional warps that are intended to bully physical reality (which is generally much more objectively stable than non-physical reality), the weight/stability that accessing/invoking Orlog has can be useful. Since physical dimensions are generally hard to affect directly, affecting nonphysical dimensions, or extra-physical as the case may be, is more typical. Manipulating this non-traditional space has less direct impact on physical space and events than is desired, at least by me. So emphasizing their existence/weight is desirable. There are any number of ways to do this, of course. Orlog just occurs to me as I, unlike you, Art, am still very interested in the Elder Futhark.


I think the Elder Futhark is cool, I just don't use them anymore. I'm not saying it can't affect things or doesn't work. There are many magicians (including yourself I presume) that get good results from them. I have just moved past them. I know their source and why they work and don't feel like giving them that easy of an access to affect what I'm trying to accomplish (where appropriate). Orlog the way you are describing it is a religious view (or theurgic?). That is common in many magician systems and even necessary for them to work. That simply isn't my approach. I've dealt with many gods in my time, include the Norse ones. Some I am friendly with. But I don't ask them for anything and certainly don't involve them in my magical workings.

As far as dimensional warps bulling physical reality, it "bullies" reality in general, physical or not. But there is far more to dimensional tech than just the bulling part. Part of the idea is to understand why the higher dimensions have an effect and how to best use them for your goals. Having something on the ground that you need to get past and knowing you can use a direction called "up" to step over it, is useful. Higher dimensional thinking allows access to the previously in-accessible, which means you can manipulate things previously off limits be it via pushing around reality or simply touching the untouchable. It allows sensing of things that normally would be blocked or muted. But there is nothing mystical about this, it's just math. "Evil Astral Math" as some students call it, but math none the less. I may have a magical black box that talks to me, but I know my phone is built on physics and the understanding of how things works makes it possible. ;)

Different definitions and philosophies are a large part of the disagreement here. I won't argue with you, it's Omni's terminology, not my own.


I have found most arguments are about differing definitions of the same word. And certainly the philosophies are different from what I'm starting to see. I've always been surprised by how much people are separated by the same language. Like I said before, it is always best to define terms and not assume the other person has the same definition or understanding for a term that you do. I will state that I don't subscribe to the concept of transcendentalism or symbols having inherent power, etc.

Still, not everyone on the forum is a part of Omni, I miss the days when every month or two a good discussion would happen here, always made for good reading. Now that the old lurkers are mostly gone or a part of Omnicyber, I'm simply trying to fill the void created. Thanks for your response.


Heh, no problem. These things come in waves. Sometimes it's really active, and sometimes (most of the time) it's pretty dead. Most come by here to talk to bid to get into Omni or at least see what we are about, and then go on their merry way.
User avatar
LordArt
Head Omnimancer
Head Omnimancer
 
Posts: 2016
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 11:21 pm
Location: Earth Realm, This side of the Multiverse

Re: Orlog

Postby miri » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:19 pm

LordArt wrote:But you are.
Then call it physics rather than trying to get fancy. ;)


I draw a murky, mutable, ever in self-conflict line between the physical and non-physical. It's a weakness of human thinking that binaries are preferred, perhaps, but functionally it has proven helpful for me. So I would consider Physics to be the set of rules governing the physical, "astral physics" (which seem very different from physics) governing the astral, and Orlog as a source/enforcer of these rules. So, I'm not seeing Orlog as an entity, or as God, I'm seeing it as a "force of Nature" that is very very fundamental. I could call it physics, I suppose but it'd be to oeasy to confuse with the rules themselves, if anything I would call it "meta physics" which has very obvious problems...

LordArt wrote:And how exactly is talking about a "theoretical progenitor of existence" and calling it "God" not theological?


Because I'm discussing it as a mechanism, not as a being, or something to be revered. This is a specific paradigm-flexible perspective tool/approach. I'm merely couching it in such language because strictly technical language feels inadequate, which is, I suppose, why there is theology to begin with. I'm not discussing sacrificing goats, praying blindly to an entity, or anything along those lines; I'm discussing the use of a conceptually separate aspect of the Rules we work with, the Source/enforcement aspect.

LordArt wrote:Tweaking the rules or more accurately, creatively using the rules against the normal status quo is useful yes. I'm not sure how you are defining Orlog. To me, your definition seems to be all over the place which is why I'm not understanding you. Magic is a means of controlling physics that current science doesn't recognize or understand yet. There are MANY ways to accomplish the same thing with varying results or efficiencies. Raw energy is one way. Dimensional Tech is another. One may get better results than the other. Understanding how the astral works as a realm and the physical works as a realm, and how they interact, and the means they can be forced to interact "unnaturally" is useful. But it's just physics. (I mean unnaturally in this case by disrupting the normal cyclic motion of things to tweak when something happens) I mean if I do X and get Y as a result, isn't that just physics? X could be a spell effect, which in turn creates different manifestations in the astral realm which in turn affects the physical realm in the desired (hopefully) way to produce a measurable result. This of how an ultrasound can "see" a baby in a mother's womb. So one is using indirect affects to produce direct effects.


I suppose, from your perspective, I'm arguing that Physics has multiple aspects, and that viewing these aspects as in some way separate, and addressing/interacting with them differently is more effective than retaining (a possibly more technically accurate) conception of Physics as a cohesive whole. I can't imagine that there hasn't already been plenty of Omni research into why/how physics exists, and how to alter the rules from that end of the equation. Adjusting my typical vernacular to yours makes it sound different, I'm almost entirely out of the habit of discussing magic technically. I should have considered and compensated. My original post was meant to say that interacting with physics from the source down is useful, especially in cases of Dim tech.

LordArt wrote:Ok, you lost me here. I have lots of techniques that do what you mention, but I don't call it Orlog. If we replace the word Orlog with the word physics in the above statement, then yes, I agree with you. But isn't that what everyone has been doing all along if that is the case (be them using such names or not)?


Reworded to fit your perspective, as I understand it, by working from the source of physics "down" to the rule, rather than with the rules directly, the comparatively delicate astral/spatial/dimensional warps that dim tech relies on can be made more solid. Yes, tweaking rule directly helps, but I'm suggesting that it helps far less than working from the source of physics. Very mild influence upon the roots of what makes a specific warp unstable can stabilize it more readily and fully than using a comparatively simple work around on the working level, which can be destabilized with opposed will. By aligning the Source of the rules' (Orlog's) "will" with the practitioner's comparatively very stable reactions/warps can be achieved. I'm not sure if that actually translated well/worked out, we'll see.

LordArt wrote:I think the Elder Futhark is cool, I just don't use them anymore. I'm not saying it can't affect things or doesn't work. There are many magicians (including yourself I presume) that get good results from them. I have just moved past them. I know their source and why they work and don't feel like giving them that easy of an access to affect what I'm trying to accomplish (where appropriate). Orlog the way you are describing it is a religious view (or theurgic?). That is common in many magician systems and even necessary for them to work. That simply isn't my approach. I've dealt with many gods in my time, include the Norse ones. Some I am friendly with. But I don't ask them for anything and certainly don't involve them in my magical workings.

As far as dimensional warps bulling physical reality, it "bullies" reality in general, physical or not. But there is far more to dimensional tech than just the bulling part. Part of the idea is to understand why the higher dimensions have an effect and how to best use them for your goals. Having something on the ground that you need to get past and knowing you can use a direction called "up" to step over it, is useful. Higher dimensional thinking allows access to the previously in-accessible, which means you can manipulate things previously off limits be it via pushing around reality or simply touching the untouchable. It allows sensing of things that normally would be blocked or muted. But there is nothing mystical about this, it's just math. "Evil Astral Math" as some students call it, but math none the less. I may have a magical black box that talks to me, but I know my phone is built on physics and the understanding of how things works makes it possible. ;)


I can understand your perspective on the Runes, and, of course, I'm not exclusively using Runes for my magical work, they've merely remained an important component of my magical work for several years. My mention of Berkana and Tyr specifically is due to how I conceive of their interaction with reality. They seem to affect Orlog directly in more obvious ways than any of the other Runes. Berkana by reinforcing what Orlog "has in mind" (it doesn't have a mind, really, but I've no better phrasing), and Tyr by influencing Orlog's will/mind/specific-details-of-rule-enforcement subtly.

With the warps, yes, they bully physical and non-physical, but it is *much* easier to bully non-physical reality. Consequently it is also much easier to break up such warps as the contorted reality they rely on can be bullied by an opposing will right back into its "natural" (Orlog-supported) state. I have nothing to say against what you're saying about the basic application of extra-dimensional thinking. Yes, it's math; yes, it's useful; yes, it's a means of attaining a broader understanding. I'm not trying to argue against that perspective.

Different definitions and philosophies are a large part of the disagreement here. I won't argue with you, it's Omni's terminology, not my own.


LordArt wrote:I have found most arguments are about differing definitions of the same word. And certainly the philosophies are different from what I'm starting to see. I've always been surprised by how much people are separated by the same language. Like I said before, it is always best to define terms and not assume the other person has the same definition or understanding for a term that you do. I will state that I don't subscribe to the concept of transcendentalism or symbols having inherent power, etc.


It's especially difficult when two people have terminology that is in common use in their respective circles that has years of baggage. It can be difficult to remember the beginning to start from when defining a term, especially for someone like me who has done very little schmoozing in the broader OEC for the last several years. My apologies.

LordArt wrote:Heh, no problem. These things come in waves. Sometimes it's really active, and sometimes (most of the time) it's pretty dead. Most come by here to talk to bid to get into Omni or at least see what we are about, and then go on their merry way.


It simply bothers me. As I said, thank your for responding and indulging my desire for some kind of discussion here.
User avatar
miri
Visitor
Visitor
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:41 pm
Location: Maine

Return to Open Magical Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

Home | Forums | Members | Events | Public IRC | IRC | Documents | FAQ | Omnimancy Overview | Omnimancy Translator | Stories