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Theurgy and Thaumaturgy

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Postby LordArt » Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:27 pm

Draconic Feathers wrote:Personally, I prefer the spiritual approach over the purely practical approach because of all the evolution the former brings forth...the latter inevitably comes along with it (and it ways that makes it more than a mere "bonus"...it becomes a normal part of who you are).


I would like to point out that I have found the "practical" approach (Thaumaturgy), also causes evolution. If you are good at what you do, you can't help but get an understanding the "universe" (or multiverse as I see it). And as one understands more, to me that's evolution, because it changes one's point of view, seeing what can and can't be done and why, how things work behind the scenes, etc. Magic is part of who I am, as much as the many other things I do. I don't consider it spiritual at all (in the sense of it being a spirituality).

I will say it's not as "safe" of a path however, compared to what I've seen of Theurgy. Certain things are found out that some people don't WANT to understand (I've seen that happen to different Omnis in their training). Truth does not always match up with one's preconceptions, and some people can't handle the "truth" as well as others.

I just stated the above because it seems there is a misconception that Thaumaturgy doesn't offer understanding and evolution, and that's simply not true. It just manifests differently. (Kind of like some's misconception that you have to be religious to be ethical/moral)
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True

Postby draconic feathers » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:10 pm

Thaumaturgy does result in evolution as well (as does anything in life really) but it does so in a more "harsh" way, as you more or less already described. Theurgy is just something that was literally made for the purpose of evolution and is therefore safeguarded in certain ways to accommodate and protect the fragilities of the human mind and body during the delicate growth process. In Theurgy, if someone is not ready for a certain revelation or ability or energy or anything like that, the person gets support in processing all of this. They also are working within certain parameters that are made to enhance their inner-bodies so that they'll be more able to handle all of this new and high-energy stuff (knowledge, energy etc etc) in a healthy and vibrant way.


Magic is part of who I am, as much as the many other things I do.


I can definitely understand that. I'm starting to realize that it all depends on an individual's personal path and needs...some people need to get "down and dirty" in the more-harsh stuff because they're able to do so and have something to learn from the experience...others need to be in circles of protection.


Anyways, I just said that ^ (the quote in your post) because I've been finding that many Thaumaturges I've come across only seem to care about the "cool stuff' and the practical approach (many psions and chaos magicians). In the long run it's all about the progress and evolution...otherwise one would never be involved with such things in the first place...but yeah. I guess I was just projecting.
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minor addition

Postby draconic feathers » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:34 pm

in addition to what I just said:

I was looking at the whole subject from a technological aspect as well...like I said before, Theurgy was constructed with the intention of it being used for evolution and for it to become what psychotherapy tries to be. Thus...the way I see it, it's very good at what it does.


Thaumaturgy has some pretty awesome potentials though...*thinks about Gnosis-Capacity amps and spells...*
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Postby LordArt » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:08 pm

I disagree that the purpose of theurgy's construction is evolution. I think that has become one of many perceptions of it, but certainly wasn't it's beginning, nor it's real purpose. I think that if evolution is what you get out of it, more power to you. I think the reasons why people choose theurgy is as diverse as the methods(because certainly not all theurgy caters to evolution). I think it's obvious that evolution is your interest in it, and the methods you likely use are to that end.

In the end, Thaumaturgy and Theurgy are chosen based on the path of the individual and what they feel they require. There are idiots in both camps, and there are competents in both camps too (but unfortunately all too rare). I think the true benifits are really only found by the competent ones.
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hmm

Postby draconic feathers » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:42 pm

the conception of Theurgy...a fuzzy subject indeed.

Out of curiosity, what's your take on it's origin?

Many tend to believe it originated in ancient egypt, others in some other area in the middle east...

Some go as far as to say Atlantis.

Hmm...

I can see what you mean about it not being conceived for purely evolution...but I do know that the aspect of Theurgy presented by the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (and other such groups) is meant for evolution...the evolution of the practioner so one could be capable of furthering the evolution of the world as a whole.

I suppose the intent within its origin could have been for more shamanic purpose (taking care of society and keeping a balance between the will of man and the will of otherwordly entities, etc)


At any rate; you're right. I do experience evolution through practicing Theurgy. I would think others who practice it do as well...there's definately more to it than just banishing circles, healing and manifesting things while keeping karma in mind...

To me, the whole purpose of Theurgy is Alchemy...and the purpose of Alchemy is to become the one who can perform the miracles (stone to gold) while transmuting one's own being...which sounds like evolution.
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Postby Vir Fortunae Lucisque » Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:44 pm

I cannot help but throw in my two coppers, being one interested in Theurgy myself.

Let us not forget the most widely accepted definition of magick (as postulated by Crowley). Please no flaming here. Even if you do not agree, the eruditious sort who are drawn to this Art and Science are by and large a well-learned bunch, and at least KNOW this axiom.

Magick is the Art and Science of causing Change in conformity with Will.


That's it. End.

Now, it becomes a spiritual thing when one begins to examine what exactly constitute Change and Will. The implications thereof are too numerous to enumerate here.

However, let us not forget that it is also a science. Much as the science of philosophy has the ability to change those who study it, it is still by and large an intellectual pursuit. In psychology, or philosophy, or any other "soft" science, change is part and parcel of the field. So it is in Magick.

Change is attained in Magick, whether one wants it or not. It is an inevitable effect of the study. Whether or not you attach spiritual meaning to those changes is irrelevant. When one begins working with the energies that permeate the multiverse, an understanding begins to become nascent in that person, and those energies leave that person forever altered. Once you've entered that realm, there is no return.

Those of you who stated that, as with anything one puts effort into, magick leaves an indelible imprint on the individual are so right. The Path of magick, whichever form one walks it in (theurgy or thaumaturgy, in this case), is a difficult one. As with all things that tax an individual's resourcefulness, intellect, stamina and determination-magic too can leave a person forever changed by simple virtue of sustained effort over time.

Before going too much further into this, I would like here to make a distinction as to what I personally consider to be a true magician, as opposed to a simple conjurer of tricks and gimmicks, amusing only to the jester. You see, the idea of magic today is that the magician can unlock doors, call storms, make fire, etc. This is magic, but practicing magic does not truly make one a magician. It is then necessary to consider the actual linguistics of the words magic and magician. You see, magic comes from the word magia, which means literally “wise arts.” The adept of this wise art was called a magus, or “wise man,” from whence we pull the word “magician.” So you must therefor consider if doing the occasional neat trick actually makes one a wise man, or a simple entertainer. I believe it does not. You see there are magicians, and then there are people who can do things that are called magic. There is magic, but then there are gimmicks and feats that, though interesting and entertaining, are not worthy of pertaining to the class of the wise arts.

And so I will offer my distinction between the two right here and now. A jester will call upon the wind to impress those whom he has gathered, and an idler will call upon the wind for no reason other than the fact that he can, but a magician will call upon the wind because he is looking upon a group of sweating workers who have been laboring in the hot sun all the windless day. A jester will turn to those who will listen and say “observe, for in two days a storm shall come,” and a useless idler will call upon a storm simply to see his own power, but a magician will call upon a storm because he looks around and sees that the grass is brown and the trees are dry from drought, yet none shall ever know the storm was called by him. The entertainer will call a crowd around an injured person and heal him only to hear the applaud of the audience, and the idler will cut himself just to heal himself, but the magician will stand at a distance where he will not be noticed, and mend the bones of an unknowing person whom has injured himself, and the magician shall walk away without saying a word. Therefor we can say that the jester users his feats to entertain and gain recognition to extend his ego. The useless idler knows such feats, but does not seek to gain recognition from them, yet only applies them uselessly. The magician then knows how to work such wonders as the others, but does so only to the benefit of others, and humbly rejects the idea of using them to expand his own recognition. In the same way we can class those three types of magic users in an order from the most bastardized to the truest way of applying magic. The jester learns magic only for self betterment, and is therefore the lowliest of the three. The idler does not seek to increase his ego and recognition with his magic, and is therefore above the jester. Yet nor does the idler properly apply such knowledge, and therefor is useless to the world. Finally, above them all is the magician, who uses his knowledge only for the betterment of the world around him, completely devoid of selfishness, and who devotes his entire life to study and sweats blood not for himself, but for the people he crosses on the street everyday, whom will never know his greatness.


The spiritual path of the magician, then, is much like that of any spiritualist seeking a higher truth and a level of spiritual enlightenment. It is one devoid of selfishness and full of self denial. It is in its purest form a path of purity and righteousness, just as beneficial, yet just as difficult, as that of the true Christian, or true Buddhist. And so therefor the path of the magician is similar to any spiritual path seeking higher truth and enlightenment.

The magician is ultimately a servant, and perhaps the lowliest of all servants, to the universe. Indeed a petty slave is the magician, who can only wrought such feats as he is accredited by falling to his knees and begging as a child that something happen. All the while, the request the magician has made, which we call spells, can be examined and rejected. Magicians are beggars that beg for the well being of others in that sense. We pray for their souls where they can not, or help others in ways they can not.
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." ~ Horace
"Credo ut intelligam" ~St. Augustine
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Postby Oyama » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:33 pm

Quoting Prophecy word for word, while not necessarily a bad thing, puts you in somewhat of a bad light if you do it the way you did in that last post. It's bad form. If you agree with his distinction, that's fine, but you are plagiarizing. You should either put it into your own words, or state that you are quoting someone else.

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Postby StormSeeker » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:38 pm

Oh gods, those are Proph's words? I thought they sounded really familiar.

Welcome to the boards, Vir. :)
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