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Astral Biology?

The more interesting threads from the other two forums (mostly the open magical discussion forum) have been moved here, so that those not wanting to hunt through the other forums to find interesting topics, can just look here. This forum section is reply only, so no NEW topics can be placed here. If you want to start a new thread, please do so in the appropriate forum.

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Postby FireEssence » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:57 pm

I'd just like to say thanks to everyone else who made responses int his thread as first of all, without CB and miri asking questions or making statements, Art wouldn't have made the responses he did. Secondly of course I want to thank Art for mentioning all the neato stuff he did. :)
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Postby miri » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:11 pm

LordArt wrote:That's all well and good, but the body adapts to this new energy transfer and changes itself to accomodate. Especially if it's over time and continuous. I remember the G4s before we "discovered" buffering(long story), it would rip our bodies apart and make one get in such pain that one vomitted if one wasn't careful. We stood for it because we got use to the power and wanted more. The problem in the G4 that caused the issue has since been fixed, but I've seen what a lot of energy going through a body can do without a SIGNIFICANT cleanup of the energy itself.

The problem there is likely desensitising the area because it becomes USE to feeling the large amount of energy rather than suttle changes. People are always complaining about their lack of good detail senses and this is a wonderful way of numbing them. As what started this, I've seen high-energy transfers to bodies that aren't ready for it, and it causes a lot of damage, or numbs it out if it was brought up less violently. For the levels of energy that I'm referring to, it's just a bad idea. Take it or leave it. I will admit there are safer ways but it isn't going in via the normal entry methods and it's for specific functions.

"Buffering?" Would that be preparation of the system with reinforcement and more appropriate energy channels etc. (akin to artificial "hypercapacity)? Or am I wrong in assuming that? Because artifical or natural hypercapacity is indeed an almost required component of high-energy transfers/mods/whatevers (as always: at least in my experience).


LordArt wrote:I'm not saying all power sources require fuel. I'm just saying all power sources are getting their energy from something else and therefore converting it to a usable means, meaning, it's not just coming from no where. A ley line is a collection of energy run-off, but there has to be that spare energy in the first place to "run-off" to collect in the leylines. Sometimes the nature of the environment allows energy extraction, but there was some sort of complex (or not so complex) series of environmental reasons why one has such a power source. A good example is hydro-electric power. The river runs because gravity makes it run down hill. However, it GOT up-hill, aquiring potiential energy from evaporation from the sun then raining back at the top of the incline (whereever that might be). To the average person, it doesn't have to be this complex. "There is river, it wants to go down hill, and the river is always there. Infinite energy from no-where." Well, it isn't infinite and if the environment changes, that river disappears and then what? Besides, by definition, that power source has a finite amount of power (yield) it can give at any one time (mostly based on the volume of the river).

As far as fuel based power sources, as I mentioned, we used natural and non-fuel based (per se) power sources before this. This new (at the time) powersource just gave us a FAR greater yield than the others did. We eventually went to a more environmentally friendly power source at a latter point that yielded even more power, but that wasn't as simple to build and REQUIRED hard magic to build by definition.

One has to keep in mind that it was important to increase the yield of power per second, hence the need to move off of naturally occuring power sources. The above power sources were simply different answers to that need.

Also, when I said the power source was "unique", I didn't mean it in the sense that no one in the multiverse had ever come across it before. I meant that no one in Omnimancy had come up with anything close at the time, in function or yield. Actually, no one had created a power source at the time at all.

That cleared things up, thanks.

LordArt wrote:
Miri, why is your first reaction to insult (ie. calling the students narrow-minded) rather than consider you might not know the whole situation? I would have think that would have been proven out by now. At least your not calling it silly. I'm sure the Head of OmniNorth will like to know you consider him narrow-minded, who is incidently one of Ogre's best friends.

I just can't see anythign requiring TWO UG4 omnis as being anything less than ridiculously, intensely difficult by every standard in existence (and even impossible in some) to be legitimate... it's just mind-overloadingly boggling that such a device could indeed exist and be made by anyone with less than great effort... besides... There is always around everything, slowly building up smaller energy sources that eventually get close enough to the level of your creation could've probably accomplished it...eventually, that was my point, not really that the students themselves were flawed, just could have found other ways, I think...

LordArt wrote:As far as getting the tech power source to run, yes it required a LOT of magical strength to get the spell running, so yes they had to pair up and work in conjunction at UG4 to actually get it running. It required a certain level of brute force to start the reaction because of the nature of it. While one can take tech further up and retro it for use at lower levels in many cases, this was bleeding edge at the time, there was no "higher tech" to retro down. Even the concept of retroing down didn't start until a few amps past that as it was. It was a testiment TO their abilities to make something workable at their level that really shouldn't have been able to work. The powersource itself was SO radically different, that it wasn't like it was a slight derivative of something else that they could have researched in a different direction and came up with a different answer.

Lower end tech is really easy. Higher end tech is REALLY complex. I would have thought that was obvious by now.


What I don't get is how you guys incorporate so many things from other magics and yet you never even considered making a nexus/powersource type piece of tech... why did it take so long?

LorArt wrote:Well, it isn't like I'm sitting here remembering it all. It's more like as I progress more comes to me. A lot I figuired out "manually". However, the MAJOR leaps forwards generally just come to me but rarely. Now I understand so much that it isn't as mysterious. There is still MAJOR things that I don't understand on a conscious level. It's hard to explain understanding without knowing. It's like I understand what I'm doing, but I don't think of all the details when I do it. However, at any time if I wish to look at the details directly, they are just there. Honestly to use high-end tech/omnimacy you can't see it all at once. It would be kind of like trying to visualise every single part, screw, bolt, etc. of a car ALL at once in your mind. It would just be unwieldy, so you learn to abstract things. I do the same when viewing more than 3 dimentions at once, it's too unwieldy, so I learned to make mental abstractions so it becomes usable while still keeping the details. My experience with other Omnis they naturally fall into that method of doing things anyways. Our minds are just build that way. That's why it's far easier to actually do Omnimancy than to explain it.

Yeah where I come from originally it's called sub-concious work, or talking with your "inner." I get what you mean by what you say.


LordArt wrote:Omnimancy by no means is unique in the multiverse. Actually its QUITE common. It just doesn't seem to be practiced here (earth) for some reason. At least not in an organised way. I've found some natural mages over the years who practice a form of Omnimancy, but because none of their compatriots could understand a lick of what they were doing, they kept it to themselves. The only thing unique (from what I've seen) of Omnimancy is that instead of keeping this information isolated to individuals, I've taught it to people and a lot of VERY smart people have helped to advance it far further than any single individual ever seems to have. The group itself has made Omnimancy to what it is today. Things are set up so unique individuality ADDS to the group, rather than tearing it down like it seems to in other groups. Meaning, if you learn another system, generally your trying to do things exactly what the founders of that system laid out. To become a clone of the founder, if you will. In my case, that's not how the group is organised.

Am I happy about "mock" or rival Omnimancy groups? No, but I knew it was an eventuality. Personally I expected it a lot sooner than now actually (and one person doesn't make a group). Most people don't have the leadership and/or organisational skills to make a working group. A bunch of hot-doging yah-hoos doesn't make a group, and least it doesn't advance the group. I'm also confident with the progress that HAS been made (at least in Core), that I'm not worried about rival groups. The likelyhood of the same kind of synergy taking those other hypothetical groups to the same place seems VERY unlikely.

However, I AM happy that individuals are able to take what is given and do something with it. And as you've said yourself, you probably have done a tech spell or two in the past. However, without the VASTE tech pool that is in Omnimancy, it doesn't amount to much in others without the tech knowledge pool.

Alright then, so you're glad that someone besides you has a brain but not so glad they will be using their brains in a fashion that it could make your particular situation less... "special?"(more or less)

LordArt wrote:Are you really just that dumb or just fishing again? What EXACTLY makes you think that you hit a diety upside the head with a 2x4 and get it to give up their goods? And even if you had the power to do that, do you REALLY think they wouldn't take revenge for that insult in the long run? Suttlely or otherwise? Let's say you were powerful enough to do that to a single diety. What makes you think the others wouldn't gang up on you just to eliminate an upstart threat, especially if your social interaction is done with a 2x4? Of course the next obvious question would be, if you were so powerful to overrun a particular diety, why would you be asking for their information anyways? What they had obviously wasn't sufficient to stop you. So go have fun Miri, I'd love to watch.

*shakes head*

A lot of dieties are quite helpful without one threating them, which if you weren't able to overrun them, they would squash you for trying. Most act like grandparents giving candy to their grandchildren. So most will help just for the visit. So there is no need for the attitude that you suggest. It's unlikely they will give you their best stuff or anything close to it, but why should they do more?

And I have come to points in my magical carreer when I've hit brick walls. Sometimes it can last for a year or more. Sometimes discoveries flow like water. So it can go either way.

*quickly hides his I <3 Fishin' hat behind his back* <.< >.>

I actaully meant more along the lines of speaking softly and carrying a big stick with dieites... so that it's obvious that you could accidently vaporize them by yawning too hard but being quite sure to not actually harm them... bully was a poor choice of word... Though.. I suppsoe if you had the multiverse at your complete disposal that the 2x4 method would do nicely... (and I think few doubt omnimancy has that capacity, seing as you add members for "fresh blood" and are most probably around 100 strong, and quite possibly more with the physical groups. Really I'd be more surprised if you guys did not become the biggest fish in the pond if not within the next decade then within a generation...).
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Postby Strider » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:07 am

LordArt wrote:

Miri, why is your first reaction to insult (ie. calling the students narrow-minded) rather than consider you might not know the whole situation? I would have think that would have been proven out by now. At least your not calling it silly. I'm sure the Head of OmniNorth will like to know you consider him narrow-minded, who is incidently one of Ogre's best friends.


I just can't see anythign requiring TWO UG4 omnis as being anything less than ridiculously, intensely difficult by every standard in existence (and even impossible in some) to be legitimate... it's just mind-overloadingly boggling that such a device could indeed exist and be made by anyone with less than great effort... besides... There is always around everything, slowly building up smaller energy sources that eventually get close enough to the level of your creation could've probably accomplished it...eventually, that was my point, not really that the students themselves were flawed, just could have found other ways, I think...


Alright. Stop it.

The tech in quesiton was pretty much a week old at the time. No amount of build-up of small things would have accomplished my hack of the item. It was a different level of technology than anything you would experience as a UG4 at the time and was completely alien to us for the most part at the time... most of all to me.

I sat there in the hot tub watching what Arthur was doing and, despite them telling me I couldn't do it, I was the first UG4 to hack a G7a item. 50% output was till easily 900% more than anything I could combine to output that kind of energy...if not more. I figured out what was going on and with the help of a few other Omni's to adjust a bit here and there and another UG4 Omni I kicked over my hack of what Arthur was playing with. Once the first one wsa up I could make more... I even refined the tech a bit as time progressed before I was G7a myself.

I am damn proud of my hack. It is the true spirit of Omni to see something others say you cannot do and figure out how to do it... even if it is just to mock them later on (which given the name I gave it did so in true Omni fashion). In this case though, aside from the mocking because they said I couldn't do it, it turned out to be a VERY useful bit of hacking for someone at UG4 to have to play with.
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Postby Obsidian » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:04 am

Oi, I love this part.

"I sat there in the hot tub watching..."

It's sounds so casual. In the hot tub. To me it really shows how versatile and day-to-day Omnimancy can be. You don't have to be at home, alone, concentrating in silence. You don't have to be totally relaxed/deep in meditation. It can be done anywhere, including in a hot-tub full of your friends and food.

I still have trouble casting if there's other people around, because I'm afraid they'll notice. Music is the worst though (musical patterns devour my attention scarily well).

I don't think Miri understands just how much power you guys are dealing with. The fact that being connected to a power source like that wouldn't just hurt for a few minutes, but kill you physically. It's understandable though. For most people magic is totally disconnected to their physical life.

Oh, and Miri. Like Art explained, never be mean to deities. There's a reason they're still alive after thousands of years, and it's not because they're good at hiding. Even if you're a bigger fish than them, their buddies might be bigger than you. Or their private army might be slightly more than you as an individual can face.

I also don't believe it's possible to ever 'become' the biggest fish in the pond. For us humans, we have to work incredibly hard to get a lot of power. For some entities out their, they're born (or created) with more power than most of us can ever achieve. Then there's the things that function on a totally different level to the 'normal' entities. *shakes his head* There'll ALWAYS be bigger fish.

That doesn't mean Omni can't and don't kick a lot of ass =P They just aren't all-powerful and they know it. Learning the hard way teaches a special kind of acknowledgement.

FE: Hehe, you're welcome =) I feel rather special that you mentioned my name :P I'm sorry I wasn't able to steer the thread back to the original topic. It's pretty much my fault we've gone off on this tangent =P Still, you gotta love the information we've gotten, huh =)

Art: You mention Omnimancy not being widespread here on Earth. Is this implying that there are other physical races that practice the same sort of magic?

More to the point... Is this implying there are other species/races/alien lifeforms that're intelligent enough to work with stuff of this complexity? Since I first learnt about the Astral plane, I've been deathly curious as to whether it would let me search the galaxy for intelligent life. The way you wrote it sorta implied you've found or know of something out there... Or I'm just reading too much into it =P
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Postby miri » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:45 am

Strider wrote:Alright. Stop it.

The tech in quesiton was pretty much a week old at the time. No amount of build-up of small things would have accomplished my hack of the item. It was a different level of technology than anything you would experience as a UG4 at the time and was completely alien to us for the most part at the time... most of all to me.

I sat there in the hot tub watching what Arthur was doing and, despite them telling me I couldn't do it, I was the first UG4 to hack a G7a item. 50% output was till easily 900% more than anything I could combine to output that kind of energy...if not more. I figured out what was going on and with the help of a few other Omni's to adjust a bit here and there and another UG4 Omni I kicked over my hack of what Arthur was playing with. Once the first one wsa up I could make more... I even refined the tech a bit as time progressed before I was G7a myself.

I am damn proud of my hack. It is the true spirit of Omni to see something others say you cannot do and figure out how to do it... even if it is just to mock them later on (which given the name I gave it did so in true Omni fashion). In this case though, aside from the mocking because they said I couldn't do it, it turned out to be a VERY useful bit of hacking for someone at UG4 to have to play with.


*shrugs* You have every right to be proud about having accomplished something deamed inmpossible... but I think ithat the actual silliness was deaming it impossible. If there are Omnimancers who still believe that ANYTHING is impossible they deserve the title silly...
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Postby LordArt » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:00 am

miri wrote:"Buffering?" Would that be preparation of the system with reinforcement and more appropriate energy channels etc. (akin to artificial "hypercapacity)? Or am I wrong in assuming that? Because artifical or natural hypercapacity is indeed an almost required component of high-energy transfers/mods/whatevers (as always: at least in my experience).


This is what I get for mentioning names. I'll try not to make the same mistake since it just causes problems. Buffering in this case is a feedback buffer but more than that, it's an energy "smoother". It removed, in this case, the background hum in the energy stream that when amplified caused damage. It was a new concept at the time (which was a decade ago about at this point).

miri wrote:I just can't see anythign requiring TWO UG4 omnis as being anything less than ridiculously, intensely difficult by every standard in existence (and even impossible in some) to be legitimate... it's just mind-overloadingly boggling that such a device could indeed exist and be made by anyone with less than great effort... besides... There is always around everything, slowly building up smaller energy sources that eventually get close enough to the level of your creation could've probably accomplished it...eventually, that was my point, not really that the students themselves were flawed, just could have found other ways, I think...


Who are you exactly to judge what is "legitmate"? I find this an interesting duality. You give us credit for knowing what we are doing and then you go off like this saying we don't have a clue. Well, which is it?

Slowly building up lessor power sources have two flaws. First, by definition, they aren't creating the continuous yield that was accomplished. The power source in question wasn't for short bursts of energy, but continuous 24/7 use at full power. Second, I have not seen any natural power sources even approach the yield that I'm refering. This was yielding several orders of magnitude MORE than the biggest natural power source we were using at the time. That's why it was blowing the spells 'circuits' (which was a rather impress sight I might add)

I think in the end you don't appreciate the scale involved. As I mentioned before, at g7a or higher, you get into spell work that SIMPLY won't work below that power level because one doesn't have the personal strength or spell casting resolution to accomplish it. It is "mind-overloadingly" kind of spell work. Just the scale of it all. There really isn't a point of reference for it in normal spell working at all (that I'm aware of anyways). It was (and still is) an accomplishment that the UG4s could do it in the first place in this case. You obviously (and there would be no reason why you would) come across spell work that REQUIRED that level of strength and precision.

At this point, CAN a non-g7a+ do this power source, I would think so with the higher advances Core has made (and if we gave it to them at that level), but your talking apples and oranges. If all you have to work with is 1970s microchips (what they had of them), then that's what you have to work with. If some guy goes back in time with a satchel of modern day chips that do the same thing that are orders of magnitude smaller and more efficient, of course the 1970s people can all of a sudden do more modern higher end things with less power and scale like modern people. But are they 1970s people anymore then? And that's the point I think your missing. It's very easy to scoff at the crap computers they had in the '70s comparing it to your 4Ghz machine, but what is that really proving? That after over 35 years of R&D one can build a better computer? Does that mean in 1970 they were all dolts because they didn't have a 4Ghz machine? That's the arguement your making, which makes no sense to me.


miri wrote:What I don't get is how you guys incorporate so many things from other magics and yet you never even considered making a nexus/powersource type piece of tech... why did it take so long?


Well, first, it's not a "nexus" power source, unless you're just saying "why did it take so long to make a tech power source". Any power source that we have seen in other systems weren't as good as the natural ones that we had access to. And just deciding "I want to make a tech power source" isn't good enough. You have to figure out HOW. Simply going "well I want it" doesn't give it you. Also, at the time, since the natural power sources used were so plentiful (and created a continious yield), and since the more powerful the caster became, the more of these power sources could be used simo, it really wasn't an issue. Also, even at UG4 level, we really didn't have spell work that required SUCH power that the natural power sources couldn't fill. Admittedly, we were using tens of thousands+, but there were more where that came from so it wasn't an issue.

There is a saying that goes "nessecity is the mother of invention". Since there was no need and a VERY easy upgrade path via the means we were using at the time (which is still taught), there was no research in making a tech power source,


miri wrote:Alright then, so you're glad that someone besides you has a brain but not so glad they will be using their brains in a fashion that it could make your particular situation less... "special?"(more or less)


In the end, I'm glad others can figuire it out because then it promotes my group after a fashion. It also proves out my ideas by independant study. Outside confirmation is an important aspect of Omnimancy as a group and this is a means to that end. Many people consider Omnimancy's claims to be quite delusional because it doesn't look like what they are use to. If many others start to practice a form of it and see it's benifits, then it legitimizes my Tradition as a whole.

I also think you DRASTICALLY underestimate what has been accomplished with Core. Even if another group formed with the same kind of people, they STILL are almost 15 years behind in R&D. And THAT'S a LONG time. And we haven't stopped. Trust me, Miri, I'm far more interested in being proven right then being "special".

Besides, if some of these groups DO get things we don't have, there are always tech trades between groups. ;)


miri wrote:*quickly hides his I <3 Fishin' hat behind his back* <.< >.>

I actaully meant more along the lines of speaking softly and carrying a big stick with dieites... so that it's obvious that you could accidently vaporize them by yawning too hard but being quite sure to not actually harm them... bully was a poor choice of word... Though.. I suppsoe if you had the multiverse at your complete disposal that the 2x4 method would do nicely... (and I think few doubt omnimancy has that capacity, seing as you add members for "fresh blood" and are most probably around 100 strong, and quite possibly more with the physical groups. Really I'd be more surprised if you guys did not become the biggest fish in the pond if not within the next decade then within a generation...).


What EXACTLY makes you think dieties are sitting around with their thumbs up their butts (well, some are but that's beside the point :) )? Do you REALLY think they are sitting on their thrones somewhere all by themselves doing nothing but answering prayer email all day and playing astral WoW? Do you really think that if I can do all this, they can't? I have to work all day 5 days a week to pay for my house and bills and do laundry on the weekend, etc. They have a LOT more free time and can easily "hire" research teams and such to work full time on it. Do you REALLY think that tech is something NEW to them? Tech is something rather old to them. They've had it for hundreds of years at least. They continue their research as do I (as does uncountable number of other entities).

Some are better at figuiring out stuff than others, but that's life. Most specialize in certain areas, because it's easier for them to research, because of how their mind works and/or simply their interests. I have my specialities. Others in Core and elsewhere have theirs. Since Omnimancy trades with it's own, we have more tech diversity than most and therefore can explore areas that would be been impractical to do so otherwise. Which is part of our strength. But it isn't like simular things don't happen elsewhere.

No one out there is sitting around "waiting" for the incarnates to come up there and bitchslap them. And I have no idea why you think they are.
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Postby LordArt » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:33 am

I seem to be good at skipping messages while I type my own. :)

Obsidian wrote:Oi, I love this part.

"I sat there in the hot tub watching..."

It's sounds so casual. In the hot tub. To me it really shows how versatile and day-to-day Omnimancy can be. You don't have to be at home, alone, concentrating in silence. You don't have to be totally relaxed/deep in meditation. It can be done anywhere, including in a hot-tub full of your friends and food.


You got it! That's part of the point. We figuired out a lot of our best stuff in the Hottub. Every good magical order should have one! :twisted:

Obsidian wrote:I still have trouble casting if there's other people around, because I'm afraid they'll notice. Music is the worst though (musical patterns devour my attention scarily well).


You do it enough, it becomes second nature. I cast while driving (I don't recommend it to people unless it's just that second nature to you). I've even taught someone a G4 level spell over the phone while driving back from Princeton and verified his work.

Obsidian wrote:I don't think Miri understands just how much power you guys are dealing with. The fact that being connected to a power source like that wouldn't just hurt for a few minutes, but kill you physically. It's understandable though. For most people magic is totally disconnected to their physical life.


The spirit is rather resilent. Most will try to "short it through" to avoid as much damage as possible. I would think consistant exposure would cause perminant damage though. Considering how much energy the soul reactor puts out, the power source that I'm refering to wouldn't come close. However, people don't truely appreciate the micro-fraction that is available for spell work in comparison to what their own reactor can put out and therefore the rest of the spirit requires to run. So it MIGHT cause physical death, but likely not. You might start acting autistic or disabled. Or it might do nothing. Depends on where it hits you and what it gets to.

Obsidian wrote:Oh, and Miri. Like Art explained, never be mean to deities. There's a reason they're still alive after thousands of years, and it's not because they're good at hiding. Even if you're a bigger fish than them, their buddies might be bigger than you. Or their private army might be slightly more than you as an individual can face.

I also don't believe it's possible to ever 'become' the biggest fish in the pond. For us humans, we have to work incredibly hard to get a lot of power. For some entities out their, they're born (or created) with more power than most of us can ever achieve. Then there's the things that function on a totally different level to the 'normal' entities. *shakes his head* There'll ALWAYS be bigger fish.


Hear Hear! I personally believe that all power is achievable with enough knowledge of HOW to get there. I've been proven right so far.

Obsidian wrote:That doesn't mean Omni can't and don't kick a lot of ass =P They just aren't all-powerful and they know it. Learning the hard way teaches a special kind of acknowledgement.


OOOHH We KNOW the hard way. That's why Miri's statements are so nieve. It shows a COMPLETE lack of experience with such things.

Obsidian wrote:Art: You mention Omnimancy not being widespread here on Earth. Is this implying that there are other physical races that practice the same sort of magic?

More to the point... Is this implying there are other species/races/alien lifeforms that're intelligent enough to work with stuff of this complexity? Since I first learnt about the Astral plane, I've been deathly curious as to whether it would let me search the galaxy for intelligent life. The way you wrote it sorta implied you've found or know of something out there... Or I'm just reading too much into it =P


I know there there are other places that spirits incarnate. Those other places aren't always human. I REALLY don't know the day to day social structure of those places. I don't really know if there are other incarnating areas in this physical universe but it seems likely. I really haven't seen any real evidence that they practice this kind of magic over other stuff. Most of my run ins they were doing more shamanic magic (which admittedly is probably why I ran into them if you know anything about shamanic magic). Keep in mind, we are their spirits (or can be).

miri wrote:*shrugs* You have every right to be proud about having accomplished something deamed inmpossible... but I think ithat the actual silliness was deaming it impossible. If there are Omnimancers who still believe that ANYTHING is impossible they deserve the title silly...


I believe it's impossible for you to do a tap dance on George W. Bush's face without getting arrested (or worse) while he's still president. So I guess I deserve the title of Silly. Technically, somehow I should be able to drop the QE2 (big ship) on my house in NJ. It doesn't REALLY seem likely does it? Without reality warping on a GRAND scale, it isn't going to happen, so for all practical purposes, it's impossible. Magic allows for the impossible to become true, but if one isn't aware of it's practical limitations, it becomes a useless tool.
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Postby Obsidian » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:58 pm

Tech trade sessions let you all see things from a different point of view =) Someone who excels at dimensional manipulation could provide a part the weapons master needs to super-charge their weapon. On their own they would've taken years to get it or perhaps never have gotten it, but because another person had it spare and traded it happened a lot quicker.

Hence the group situation works out well. It's not so much that Omnimancy trains you up be powerful and run amok. It trains you up to help advance the group and the collective power/understanding.

But I need to ask:
Do you have a goal with it, Art? For a new student, the goal might be to reach G7a. For an advanced student, the goal might be to crack the spell they've been working on. But where are the most senior members aiming for?

There's no foreseeable end to how powerful you can get, or how much knowledge you can know. There's perhaps an end to how strongly you can influence the physical world, but even then it's not foreseeable. The tech can get more complex, the pond can start seeming smaller and smaller as you get larger, but where does it take you in the end?

Is it learning for the sake of learning? Power for the sake of power? Back in the day, people used to perfect their abilities to be the best. A swordsman used to train to become the best dueller. A scholar used to study to become the most well-learned. A nobleman, and so on... But when you know it's such a varied pool out there, and you can never be the 'best' (nor can there ever truly be a best), what's the aim?

The astral seems to me to be too much like our current world structure to have a discernible goal. In our world, all species struggle against each other to rein supreme, but due to the way it is no species can ever 'rule' (though humans are doing their painful best =/).. In the astral, in the dimensions... All the study and power, where does it take you?

I can understand that it takes you to greater levels of knowledge and power, but again where does that lead? =)

Just a thought.

So the power source you created back then was less than the output of the soul. Alrighty, that helps put things into perspective somewhat for me =) Thank you most kindly. Makes me wonder just how much you can generate =P

Spirits incarnating in places other than Earth implies species foreign, and hence alien, to us. That's all I needed to know =P I'm no alien buff and certainly not a big fan of the 'flying saucers' and stuff like that (a saucer is such an illogical and impractical craft =s) but it's nice to have some proof that we aren't the only incarnate-supporting planet. I honestly think I would hate it (and be extremely saddened) if we were the only intelligent life in the galaxy, or *shudder* universe (as a lot of scientific minds have implied).

"...I should be able to drop the QE2 on my house... Without reality warping on a GRAND scale, it isn't going to happen..." <-- But that's what Omnimancy is all about ;) Taking the fabric of existence and giving it a little shake about =P

And whilst I'd love the QE2, I'd rather it not on my house. Or yours, for that matter. I imagine you'd get in a lot of trouble for stealing it.

I want a hot-tub =(
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Postby miri » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:28 pm

LordArt wrote:This is what I get for mentioning names. I'll try not to make the same mistake since it just causes problems. Buffering in this case is a feedback buffer but more than that, it's an energy "smoother". It removed, in this case, the background hum in the energy stream that when amplified caused damage. It was a new concept at the time (which was a decade ago about at this point).


Ah. Thanks for the clarification...

LordArt wrote:Who are you exactly to judge what is "legitmate"? I find this an interesting duality. You give us credit for knowing what we are doing and then you go off like this saying we don't have a clue. Well, which is it?

You know what you're doing, I'm just (it seems) not going to ge it through my head the enormity of difference between UG4 and G7a...

LordArt wrote:Slowly building up lessor power sources have two flaws. First, by definition, they aren't creating the continuous yield that was accomplished. The power source in question wasn't for short bursts of energy, but continuous 24/7 use at full power. Second, I have not seen any natural power sources even approach the yield that I'm refering. This was yielding several orders of magnitude MORE than the biggest natural power source we were using at the time. That's why it was blowing the spells 'circuits' (which was a rather impress sight I might add)


... Well I've seen unnatural power sources (undoubtedly much lower in calibur than this Omni one) that DO ahve continuous output... I've had extensive use of one that I'd go so far as to call "tech" (not omni, but it is functional based on what it is, not programming, which seems/ed to be a constant in the tech amps I've only chanced glances at...). I'd say that by creating a number of these power sources and/or similar ones almost anything could be made...

LordArt wrote:I think in the end you don't appreciate the scale involved. As I mentioned before, at g7a or higher, you get into spell work that SIMPLY won't work below that power level because one doesn't have the personal strength or spell casting resolution to accomplish it. It is "mind-overloadingly" kind of spell work. Just the scale of it all. There really isn't a point of reference for it in normal spell working at all (that I'm aware of anyways). It was (and still is) an accomplishment that the UG4s could do it in the first place in this case. You obviously (and there would be no reason why you would) come across spell work that REQUIRED that level of strength and precision.

And I probably won't appreciate the scale involved until I see the scale involved at work... if that even ever happens...

LordArt wrote:At this point, CAN a non-g7a+ do this power source, I would think so with the higher advances Core has made (and if we gave it to them at that level), but your talking apples and oranges. If all you have to work with is 1970s microchips (what they had of them), then that's what you have to work with. If some guy goes back in time with a satchel of modern day chips that do the same thing that are orders of magnitude smaller and more efficient, of course the 1970s people can all of a sudden do more modern higher end things with less power and scale like modern people. But are they 1970s people anymore then? And that's the point I think your missing. It's very easy to scoff at the crap computers they had in the '70s comparing it to your 4Ghz machine, but what is that really proving? That after over 35 years of R&D one can build a better computer? Does that mean in 1970 they were all dolts because they didn't have a 4Ghz machine? That's the arguement your making, which makes no sense to me.


I think that I no longer would argue that... though at the time I meant it; it seems appearent that my lack of direct experience with Omni whatnots has lead me to not comprehending the level of difficulty such a piece of tech presents... *shrug*

LordArt wrote:Well, first, it's not a "nexus" power source, unless you're just saying "why did it take so long to make a tech power source". Any power source that we have seen in other systems weren't as good as the natural ones that we had access to. And just deciding "I want to make a tech power source" isn't good enough. You have to figure out HOW. Simply going "well I want it" doesn't give it you. Also, at the time, since the natural power sources used were so plentiful (and created a continious yield), and since the more powerful the caster became, the more of these power sources could be used simo, it really wasn't an issue. Also, even at UG4 level, we really didn't have spell work that required SUCH power that the natural power sources couldn't fill. Admittedly, we were using tens of thousands+, but there were more where that came from so it wasn't an issue.

There is a saying that goes "nessecity is the mother of invention". Since there was no need and a VERY easy upgrade path via the means we were using at the time (which is still taught), there was no research in making a tech power source,

Too bad that said saying is so true, if people invented beyond "nessecity" more often there would be less need in the future... I guess I just don't think like that... For example... I'd never need to use much more energy than I can naturally produce coupled with energy spots and leylines... However I've strived to create "mods" and energy sources that I'll doubtless get little use out of (for the time being) anyway.

LordArt wrote:In the end, I'm glad others can figuire it out because then it promotes my group after a fashion. It also proves out my ideas by independant study. Outside confirmation is an important aspect of Omnimancy as a group and this is a means to that end. Many people consider Omnimancy's claims to be quite delusional because it doesn't look like what they are use to. If many others start to practice a form of it and see it's benifits, then it legitimizes my Tradition as a whole.

I also think you DRASTICALLY underestimate what has been accomplished with Core. Even if another group formed with the same kind of people, they STILL are almost 15 years behind in R&D. And THAT'S a LONG time. And we haven't stopped. Trust me, Miri, I'm far more interested in being proven right then being "special".

Besides, if some of these groups DO get things we don't have, there are always tech trades between groups. ;)


Alright then... If that's your point of view then I have no right to question it...

LordArt wrote:What EXACTLY makes you think dieties are sitting around with their thumbs up their butts (well, some are but that's beside the point :) )? Do you REALLY think they are sitting on their thrones somewhere all by themselves doing nothing but answering prayer email all day and playing astral WoW? Do you really think that if I can do all this, they can't? I have to work all day 5 days a week to pay for my house and bills and do laundry on the weekend, etc. They have a LOT more free time and can easily "hire" research teams and such to work full time on it. Do you REALLY think that tech is something NEW to them? Tech is something rather old to them. They've had it for hundreds of years at least. They continue their research as do I (as does uncountable number of other entities).

As you said some infact DO just sit around with their tumbs up their butts... not many... but anyway... If tech is in existence then it isn't new to dieties... perhaps the use of it by human beings... but not the thing itself, of course not. But the enormity of the progress I "DRASTICALLY underestimate" should catch up to what the silly dieites can consider fear-worthy. I have yet to meet a diety that wasn't capped by a greater diety/entity that threatened its disexistence if it were to progress in strength too quickly (or even at all, sometimes)... though perhaps that's just my rather extensively limited experience rearing its head...

LordArt wrote:Some are better at figuiring out stuff than others, but that's life. Most specialize in certain areas, because it's easier for them to research, because of how their mind works and/or simply their interests. I have my specialities. Others in Core and elsewhere have theirs. Since Omnimancy trades with it's own, we have more tech diversity than most and therefore can explore areas that would be been impractical to do so otherwise. Which is part of our strength. But it isn't like simular things don't happen elsewhere.

No one out there is sitting around "waiting" for the incarnates to come up there and bitchslap them. And I have no idea why you think they are.


Many simply don't do anything about it... or even deny the possibility...

LordArt wrote:
Obsidian wrote:I don't think Miri understands just how much power you guys are dealing with. The fact that being connected to a power source like that wouldn't just hurt for a few minutes, but kill you physically. It's understandable though. For most people magic is totally disconnected to their physical life.

I like to think I make as few divisions between my mundane and energetic lives as possible without appearing a freak. After having been severely destabilized energetically my physical body registered DEFINITE effects from it... dizziness, vomiting, severe headache, numbness, the list goes on... Sensitivity is only sometimes a friend... As for power sources causing that, with proper handling, that can be utterly avoided (atleast with the levels of sources I can fathom)... and if you can't control it, you probably shouldn't of made it in the first place...

LordArt wrote:The spirit is rather resilent. Most will try to "short it through" to avoid as much damage as possible. I would think consistant exposure would cause perminant damage though. Considering how much energy the soul reactor puts out, the power source that I'm refering to wouldn't come close. However, people don't truely appreciate the micro-fraction that is available for spell work in comparison to what their own reactor can put out and therefore the rest of the spirit requires to run. So it MIGHT cause physical death, but likely not. You might start acting autistic or disabled. Or it might do nothing. Depends on where it hits you and what it gets to.


I s'pose it depends on the quantity of energy, and the soul... but I should hope that the good ol' inner would do something even if not quite entirely take care of the issue...

LordArt wrote:
Obsidian wrote:That doesn't mean Omni can't and don't kick a lot of ass =P They just aren't all-powerful and they know it. Learning the hard way teaches a special kind of acknowledgement.



OOOHH We KNOW the hard way. That's why Miri's statements are so nieve. It shows a COMPLETE lack of experience with such things.

"a COMPLETE" is are strong words together... though probably more accurate than "NO" replacing them in that context...

LordArt wrote:I believe it's impossible for you to do a tap dance on George W. Bush's face without getting arrested (or worse) while he's still president. So I guess I deserve the title of Silly. Technically, somehow I should be able to drop the QE2 (big ship) on my house in NJ. It doesn't REALLY seem likely does it? Without reality warping on a GRAND scale, it isn't going to happen, so for all practical purposes, it's impossible. Magic allows for the impossible to become true, but if one isn't aware of it's practical limitations, it becomes a useless tool.


How specific must I be?!?! Alright, practically speaking a lot of physical-level effects are indeed impossible, or close to it; however I meant subtle energy effects... Sheesh :P .
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Postby LordArt » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:42 pm

Sorry I haven't replied in a few days. Crucible is coming to a head as you know...

Obsidian wrote:But I need to ask:
Do you have a goal with it, Art? For a new student, the goal might be to reach G7a. For an advanced student, the goal might be to crack the spell they've been working on. But where are the most senior members aiming for?


THAT is a question the senior Omnis are hard at contemplating even as we speak. We've gotten TOO powerful for our own good. We know too much yet there is SO much yet to learn. We are in the "then what" stage. The hero saves the land and gets the girl and the story ends. When that happens in real life, you enter the "then what" stage. Where does one go from there? When you persue a goal and actually achieve it, then what? Especially when you didn't think the goal was achievable so didn't contemplate past it. One has to find a new goal. (My inner is still striving for his goal, but that doesn't help me as a lower right now. No, I'm not going to talk about it.) Right now, I'm just leading the newer Omnis up the food chain while I try to come up with an answer for myself, but I don't get to play like the newbies do. It's their time now as it should be. They have to learn the hard way, for if they become dependant on the senior Omnis to solve their issues, then are we training self-sufficient mages or just followers? I don't want the latter.

Each senior Omni is answering the question you asked differently. Which is perhaps yet another good reason for the power cap. It makes the advanced students WORK for the higher amps and what that gives them versus just being handed power. However, it does force a further seperation between the "founding" Omnis and the newer students.

Where does the power take you? Nothing that I can mention in a public forum. I will say it gives you a greater understanding of how the multiverse works and one's place in it (and even how to change that place).


Obsidian wrote:Spirits incarnating in places other than Earth implies species foreign, and hence alien, to us. That's all I needed to know =P I'm no alien buff and certainly not a big fan of the 'flying saucers' and stuff like that (a saucer is such an illogical and impractical craft =s) but it's nice to have some proof that we aren't the only incarnate-supporting planet. I honestly think I would hate it (and be extremely saddened) if we were the only intelligent life in the galaxy, or *shudder* universe (as a lot of scientific minds have implied).


I'm not a subscriber to the UFO thing either. I have no seen evidence that where other spirits incarnate is in this universe or not. I would prefer physical proof.

Obsidian wrote:"...I should be able to drop the QE2 on my house... Without reality warping on a GRAND scale, it isn't going to happen..." <-- But that's what Omnimancy is all about Taking the fabric of existence and giving it a little shake about =P

True, but it's not that simple. There are more than technical issues to deal with. (Not that the technical issues aren't rather large).

miri wrote:... Well I've seen unnatural power sources (undoubtedly much lower in calibur than this Omni one) that DO ahve continuous output... I've had extensive use of one that I'd go so far as to call "tech" (not omni, but it is functional based on what it is, not programming, which seems/ed to be a constant in the tech amps I've only chanced glances at...). I'd say that by creating a number of these power sources and/or similar ones almost anything could be made...


If you had a battery that put out one volt, then all you need is million batteries to have 1 million volts admittedly, but that's an UNWIELDLY amount of little boxes. I'm sure there are lessor continuous power sources that CAN be created, but I would think the maintenance on keeping them together would make it prohibitive on a truely LARGE scale. Even the power source I mentioned, at G7a, one can probbably only make like 10-15 of them running at the same time before you are REALLY feeling the strain.

miri wrote:And I probably won't appreciate the scale involved until I see the scale involved at work... if that even ever happens...

That's the unfortunately issue of lack of a point of reference. I can say how different things are, but without a personal point of reference, that means nothing.

miri wrote:But the enormity of the progress I "DRASTICALLY underestimate" should catch up to what the silly dieites can consider fear-worthy. I have yet to meet a diety that wasn't capped by a greater diety/entity that threatened its disexistence if it were to progress in strength too quickly (or even at all, sometimes)... though perhaps that's just my rather extensively limited experience rearing its head...


As I mentioned...there is always a bigger fish. You end up talking about astral politics which is a seperate conversation. There are lessor gods and there are greater ones. There are things you can't classify as easily. Much like anything else, there is GREAT diversity on the scale in both directions.
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Postby miri » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:23 am

You keep on saying "G7a," never "G7," is there a "G7b," or a "G7z" for that matter... and on the matter of one million batteries... having them maintain themselves, nad operate independently of you, then merely manipulating tha toutput would work nicely.... :P admittedly it would take someone even more stubborn than I to go throiugh with making a million independent energy sources... but I want to make it clear, without giving away any more than you are, that I have seen some "lesser power sources" with as much as infinite output...
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Postby LordArt » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:50 am

miri wrote:You keep on saying "G7a," never "G7," is there a "G7b," or a "G7z" for that matter...


There is a G7b, yes. It's a continuation/addition in the series because it is an "expansion" of what g7a is. Officially it goes up to G7d4, but I've more recently heard that Ogre has invented the G7e, but we'll never use it. Not this lifetime anyways. (It was a challenge to see if an E version COULD be designed)


miri wrote:and on the matter of one million batteries... having them maintain themselves, nad operate independently of you, then merely manipulating tha toutput would work nicely.... :P admittedly it would take someone even more stubborn than I to go throiugh with making a million independent energy sources...


As you say, it won't be practical. Also, it really wouldn't work. There is maintenace required on spells just to keep cohension (unless it's hard magic). (And all hard magic power sources require maintenence anyways) Even if you don't believe such, just the normal erosive process that breaks down spells would destroy the first set of sources before you finished making the last set. Then there is where the hell are you going to PUT a million power sources? Would their proximaty to each other interfer with their generation of power? What is to prevent some random entity from knocking it all down for kicks? How do you prevent some random entity from deciding it was good work and have them take it from you since this wouldn't be a small endevor. There are lots of practicalities that are past just the technical of making a single volt power source.

Then you have the issue of linear progression. Meaning, if you need exponential energy, you're really in a pickle to meet the energy requirements. I could probably go on about this....

miri wrote: but I want to make it clear, without giving away any more than you are, that I have seen some "lesser power sources" with as much as infinite output...


No such puppy. If "infinite" energy was so easily possible, energy would not be such a commodity. Also keep in mind, it's a matter of scale (and perception of that scale). When one looks at the ocean, one might think there is infinite amount of water there. If you are pulling a cup of water at a time, then for all practical purposes, it is infinite because it won't be drained in your lifetime. If you're pulling millions of gallons per second, then that infinite source isn't as infinite anymore. Admittedly, a self-regenerating power source (like a leyline) is technically infinite, however the YIELD per second certainly isn't. I've drained leylines down to nothing before, as has other Omnis (G3/G4 Amps will do that), which is why we try to get them OFF that kind of power source ASAP.

I've seen a LOT of things out there, rather powerful things, and if THEY aren't running around with infinite power sources that they can tap (and trust me, they would have use for one and know how to use it), I really doubt what you saw was. I would say it might be infinite to your perceptions of it considering your issues of scale between UG4 and G7a.
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Postby Atazaxixar » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:41 am

Lord Art, I believe that miri may be refering to me on the near infinite energy capacity, admittedly I've got so much dam energy that I do not know what to do with.
However, I am still learning more about various majiks but reading up on the forums here slowly starting to catch up that is :P.
I wonder what your group would think of certain tech like items that I have made :D.

And here's a question for ya :O, have you ever considered searching deep within your inner being "soul if you will" to bring it up closer? I believe it also connects to the very deep hard majik component of the deep end of astral form which was touched on in another post, but by bringing the core of yourself up closer the energy is transmitted to yourself with virtually no loss and does what I think may be the equivelent of at least a g4 :P.
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Postby LordArt » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:12 pm

Atazaxixar wrote:Lord Art, I believe that miri may be refering to me on the near infinite energy capacity, admittedly I've got so much dam energy that I do not know what to do with.


Not knowing what to do with your excess energy does not make it "near infinite". I would dare say that I have access to more energy than you do, and that it's FAR from near infinite. As I was stating before, it's a matter of scale and points of reference. You self admit you are still learning about various magics, so wouldn't it be a better statement to say that for the knowledge of what you can do with magic, the power source is near infinite for all personal practical purposes, since with what you know, you'll never drain it?

It's an unfortunate thing about the psychie, it really can't comprehend scale without a point of reference to that scale. A good example is an Aircraft Carrier. We see them all the time on TV/Movies, but until you've actually BEEN on one or seen it up close, you REALLY can't appreciate how BIG those things are. Or even how BIG the solar system really is, and the distance between planets. Most every representation isn't to scale (ie. planet size vs distance between them) because if it were, it would be too unwieldy. The planets would be pebbles or grains of sand even if scaling it out across a whole parking lot.

However, I am still learning more about various majiks but reading up on the forums here slowly starting to catch up that is :P.
I wonder what your group would think of certain tech like items that I have made :D.


Depends on what has been made like anything else. :) Because of what Core has seen, we aren't impressed too easily. (Which usually rather pisses off the newbie Core students. They'll come up with something that they think is new, and then we'll rattle off what it is, when WE had come up with it years ago, and present them with a better version to have/play with. While they end up with a better goodie, it does take the wind out of things unfortunately.)

And here's a question for ya :O, have you ever considered searching deep within your inner being "soul if you will" to bring it up closer? I believe it also connects to the very deep hard majik component of the deep end of astral form which was touched on in another post, but by bringing the core of yourself up closer the energy is transmitted to yourself with virtually no loss and does what I think may be the equivelent of at least a g4 :P.


That's nothing new. The concept or else least end result of what is going on, isn't too dissimular to some of the principles in G5 and higher. However, keep in mind that that G5 and what you're refering doesn't give you more power, but does give you more resolution. Perhaps from your perspective it gives you more power, but that's a result of better resolution versus actually more power. As we put it "Artificial Skill" vs "Artificial Power".

Also, one doesn't have to "search deep" to find one's soul, hell, we have it on the public docs as one of the bodies. (Ok, edit, we don't have it on the public docs. It's taught in the first few weeks of Omni training when we teach bodies but I guess at the time of the public doc writting we didn't want people going off and looking for it publically) Moving it "closer" if that was done litterially isn't a bright idea for astral biology reasons, but I suspect that symbolically you use that symbolism to gain access to it after a fashion. Also keep in mind, a soul does NOT have infinite energy, either by yield per second, nor fuel. The good news is, it does regenerate it's fuel via a different process, but that's a different discussion. The point is, if it yields X/second then X is finite, and especially if the fuel is also finite, then it REALLY is a QUITE finite power source. If your power needs never exceed X/second then you'll never notice that it isn't infinite.

We (at least the higher Omni's) consider souls lessor power sources in comparison. Especially if you factor in the power requirements of the rest of the systems they have to support, so in general you only have access to the excess. A soul "generates" (ie. burns/converts fuel) quite a bit of energy, don't get me wrong. But it's not practical beyond your own use using your own soul. It's an EXTREMELY complex mechinism, so one isn't going to build one, nor set it up in the environment it requires to MAKE it "regenerate" fuel, etc. The mechinisms that exist are kinda in use right now (ie. other spirits), so the excess isn't practical for larger spell work.

Getting back to topic, the G5 would probably only give a yield of a G1 to G2 in excess power. Change in resolution might yield a better power control than multiple G3s. But that's the yield of a G5 which does more than "move the soul closer". (It doesn't "move" the soul anywhere technically, but gives access) So your mileage may vary depending on your implementation of what you're talking about. The G5 isn't as impressive without the G4s backing it up with their power either.
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Postby Atazaxixar » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:55 pm

Quote:
And here's a question for ya :O, have you ever considered searching deep within your inner being "soul if you will" to bring it up closer? I believe it also connects to the very deep hard majik component of the deep end of astral form which was touched on in another post, but by bringing the core of yourself up closer the energy is transmitted to yourself with virtually no loss and does what I think may be the equivelent of at least a g4 .


That's nothing new. The concept or else least end result of what is going on, isn't too dissimular to some of the principles in G5 and higher. However, keep in mind that that G5 and what you're refering doesn't give you more power, but does give you more resolution. Perhaps from your perspective it gives you more power, but that's a result of better resolution versus actually more power. As we put it "Artificial Skill" vs "Artificial Power".

Perhaps I ought to clarify , it's not necessarily bringing it closer it's more of an adaptation of being able to tap into it and the "knowledge gained from "previous lives/experiences" that enables more power via knowledge not actually using the power of the soul itself. Sorry, was bad wording on my part, communication on these things tend to falter with languages, it's as if the concepts behind the words don't transfer.

Depends on what has been made like anything else. Because of what Core has seen, we aren't impressed too easily. (Which usually rather pisses off the newbie Core students. They'll come up with something that they think is new, and then we'll rattle off what it is, when WE had come up with it years ago, and present them with a better version to have/play with. While they end up with a better goodie, it does take the wind out of things unfortunately.)

how about a little device that has a listing of all the known energy types that "the maker of it" has ever encountered, used in one way or another and generate a large quantity of that amount of energy within seconds of about 95% purity ratio by creating a dimensional bubble "warp" if you will from the actual sourcing where the vast majority of it can be found, made of about 22,000 components :P.

I'll have to say one thing, after getting caught up on quite a few of the posts and from catching the little tidbits you've dropped and/or some of the others I've been applying various aspects with interesting results :D
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